per report Griffin #2 behind Cousins in 2015.

[skinsdad62]

First and foremost he hasn't improved to the satisfaction of some here, but based on reports coming out of camp there was improvement. In games there was truly no way to quantify that because of poor team play.

Of the choices that you listed, I'm inclined to go with #4........I refuse to believe that Gruden who insists that he has final say over who starts and plays would list Griffin as his #2 if he believed Colt to be better.

well reports are backing off that now as far as number 2 is concerned

the other thing is how many times have i heard player x has improved in TC and OTA's and then it turns out he hasnt ? hell murphy was supposed to be better but is he ?

 

[Burnsie]

Maybe they are trying to renegotiate Robert's extension telling he will not be getting that kind of money. If it is greatly reduced then maybe they keep him longer or are able to trade him.

 

[Stymietee]

well reports are backing off that now as far as number 2 is concerned

the other thing is how many times have i heard player x has improved in TC and OTA's and then it turns out he hasnt ? hell murphy was supposed to be better but is he ?

You've always insisted that reports are null and void unless there is a name attached to it. Are you saying now that Gruden lied during camp?

My previous point about improvement from the point of view of members of this site answers your second piece relating to how many times have you heard......................

Improvement for us can be far less discerning than how it is viewed from those who are paid to make those judgements.

 

[Sharkinva]

Maybe they are trying to renegotiate Robert's extension telling he will not be getting that kind of money. If it is greatly reduced then maybe they keep him longer or are able to trade him.

Thing is Im not sure if they have the latitude to renegotiate the option. The number is set by league and NFLPA rules. Now they could void the option and sign him long term IF he agreed to that. But I dont think the picking up of the option gives them the ability to say, hey Bob, would you agree to cutting this thing down to say $4 million and still have it guaranteed for injury. But we still have the option to cut you with no pay otherwise.

1. Why would the player agree
2. The NFLPA and the NFL would no ratify the adjustment and would likely see it as another case of the Redskins flexing the rules again.
3. No way in hell does Mara let us off the hook that easy.

 

[Sharkinva]

Also side note, all this really does if he is named the #2 is create more drama. If Kirk struggles or looks average in the first few games, how long before people start asking the question... why isnt RG3 playing??

Once the decision was made to make Kirk the starter, I still think they should PUP RG3 considering he is still technically injured. Buys them six weeks of being able to say RG3 is on the roster but is not an option.

 

[j_y19]

Also side note, all this really does if he is named the #2 is create more drama. If Kirk struggles or looks average in the first few games, how long before people start asking the question... why isnt RG3 playing??

Once the decision was made to make Kirk the starter, I still think they should PUP RG3 considering he is still technically injured. Buys them six weeks of being able to say RG3 is on the roster but is not an option.

Might be hard to trade him if he is PUPed.

 

[j_y19]

You've always insisted that reports are null and void unless there is a name attached to it. Are you saying now that Gruden lied during camp?

My previous point about improvement from the point of view of members of this site answers your second piece relating to how many times have you heard......................

Improvement for us can be far less discerning than how it is viewed from those who are paid to make those judgements.[/QUOTE/QUOTE]


Sty, you know as well as I that the entire organization was told to be only positive with Robert this preseason. That came from the top, or damn near. Plus, it's one thing to look better in drills, and another to be better when love ammo is flying at you. The live game still appears to move to fast for him.

Sty, you know as well as I that the entire organization was told to be only positive with Robert this preseason. That came from the top, or damn near. Plus, it's one thing to look better in drills, and another to be better when live ammo is flying at you. The live game still appears to move to fast for him.[

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I have no idea what is going on or why there would even be reports of Griffin as #2. WTF is going on?

 

[j_y19]

I have no idea what is going on or why there would even be reports of Griffin as #2. WTF is going on?

I think its once again the media reaching for a story. It makes absolutely no sense. Which, with this franchise, may mean its true. But I don't believe it. Hell, he still isn't even medically cleared. How can he be a #2 when he can't even play?

 

[Stymietee]

Sty, you know as well as I that the entire organization was told to be only positive with Robert this preseason. That came from the top, or damn near. Plus, it's one thing to look better in drills, and another to be better when live ammo is flying at you. The live game still appears to move to fast for him.[

Seriously? Do you honestly believe that? I certainly don't! !!! Here's why it makes no sense........because liars lose either way you look at it. Let's say you're right and the order came from whomever, and was followed. Players know the truth and the followers of such an order lose their trust. If on the other hand they insisted upon being truthful to those giving such an order despite being ordered to do otherwise they infuriate their bosses. Good internet theory though!

BTW: have you taken time to watch other preseason games? Notice anything about other QB's and how much time they have to throw the ball? Far more than Griffin and before you go to the old standby that he holds the ball too long, Tim Tebow who holds the ball far longer than Griffin ever has still has more time to get rid of it. Explain that!!

I know that there is Griffin fatigue, most of it comes from unrealistic, unreasonable, expectations and a unwillingness or inability to look at the beloved organization honestly, with clear unbiased eyes and see it in context, for what it is. I'll say this again, Griffin was mismanaged from the start (ego and all), now people want to ship him elsewhere but for what purpose? If he can't play who would want him? The answer to those questions, just might be that he'll go to a truly professional organization, determined to give him time to learn the pocket game, read defenses, perfect his footwork and worse become another in a long line of embarrassing costly mistakes that has become Washington Football.

 

[Stymietee]

I have no idea what is going on or why there would even be reports of Griffin as #2. WTF is going on?

Maybe it will help you if you consider this..............If, and I repeat IF true, Washington plans to actually keep the guy. Depressing? I charge $350 per hour!

 

[j_y19]

Seriously? Do you honestly believe that? I certainly don't! !!! Here's why it makes no sense........because liars lose either way you look at it. Let's say you're right and the order came from whomever, and was followed. Players know the truth and the followers of such an order lose their trust. If on the other hand they insisted upon being truthful to those giving such an order despite being ordered to do otherwise they infuriate their bosses. Good internet theory though!

BTW: have you taken time to watch other preseason games? Notice anything about other QB's and how much time they have to throw the ball? Far more than Griffin and before you go to the old standby that he holds the ball too long, Tim Tebow who holds the ball far longer than Griffin ever has still has more time to get rid of it. Explain that!!

I know that there is Griffin fatigue, most of it comes from unrealistic, unreasonable, expectations and a unwillingness or inability to look at the beloved organization honestly, with clear unbiased eyes and see it in context, for what it is. I'll say this again, Griffin was mismanaged from the start (ego and all), now people want to ship him elsewhere but for what purpose? If he can't play who would want him? The answer to those questions, just might be that he'll go to a truly professional organization, determined to give him time to learn the pocket game, read defenses, perfect his footwork and worse become another in a long line of embarrassing costly mistakes that has become Washington Football.

I absolutely believe there was a concerted effort on the part of the franchise to give Robert every last opportunity to develop, including a positive reinforcement campaign because his ego, while large, is also fragile. I also believe this decision was made above gruden and he was instructed to follow it. Hence, every report issued in public was glowing. While in reality, they were seeing something else. The Cleveland game was the final blow. When pressured, he reverted to his bad habits and they knew the season would be lost and he probably would get injured.

So I agree, our offensive line may still be a problem. But answer me this. How to you reconcile the fact that last year, behind the exact same o line, and just about the same number of pass attempts, Griffin was sacked over 30 times while cousins was sacked just 9 times?

 

[Stymietee]

I absolutely believe there was a concerted effort on the part of the franchise to give Robert every last opportunity to develop, including a positive reinforcement campaign because his ego, while large, is also fragile. I also believe this decision was made above gruden and he was instructed to follow it. Hence, every report issued in public was glowing. While in reality, they were seeing something else. The Cleveland game was the final blow. When pressured, he reverted to his bad habits and they knew the season would be lost and he probably would get injured.

So I agree, our offensive line may still be a problem. But answer me this. How to you reconcile the fact that last year, behind the exact same o line, and just about the same number of pass attempts, Griffin was sacked over 30 times while cousins was sacked just 9 times?

I've already answered your question, but just for kicks, the answer again.........Here's what Washington knew (or should have) when they drafted him.
1. He never used a playbook
2. Never was taught pro style footwork.
3. He could not read defenses
4. Never operated as a pocket passer
5. Film study habits were absent or extremely poor
6. Was not a pro style system QB.
7. Drafted, sold as, and solely dependant upon becoming the savior of the franchice (see ego boost)

Considering all of that, how was he to develop, not knowing what he did not know about his game in relation to the pro game? The organization failed him, when they played him too quickly and totally unprepared for the pro game.
Specifically to your question.........KC's pro style training began very early in his career, progressed as he advanced in his educational pursuits and was an asset when he entered the NFL. Griffin never had any of that and the differences in sacks as you've pointed out are the results of that training or lack thereof.

 

[papaskin]

A classic mexican standoff:

Griffin has shown he can run like a gazelle, has little pocket presence, can't consistently
read/anticipate defenses, is generally inaccurate, is brittle and has an immense ego.

Redskins, thru two regimes, have shown they are unwilling or unable to 'fix' Griffin
and adapt him, even marginally, to their needs.

So, keeping Griffin festering on the bench in hopes of him improving his real value
to the Skins or perceived value to other teams is a pipedream.

Either cut him or trade him for a cheesesteak and stop the bleeding.

 

[j_y19]

I've already answered your question, but just for kicks, the answer again.........Here's what Washington knew (or should have) when they drafted him.
1. He never used a playbook
2. Never was taught pro style footwork.
3. He could not read defenses
4. Never operated as a pocket passer
5. Film study habits were absent or extremely poor
6. Was not a pro style system QB.
7. Drafted, sold as, and solely dependant upon becoming the savior of the franchice (see ego boost)

Considering all of that, how was he to develop, not knowing what he did not know about his game in relation to the pro game? The organization failed him, when they played him too quickly and totally unprepared for the pro game.
Specifically to your question.........KC's pro style training began very early in his career, progressed as he advanced in his educational pursuits and was an asset when he entered the NFL. Griffin never had any of that and the differences in sacks as you've pointed out are the results of that training or lack thereof.

So for the sake of the discussion, I'll agree he was mis handled. But by your response, you seem to agree that Robert is very culpable in the number of sacks he takes. It may be due to his mishandling, bad drafting evaluation, lack of training, whatever. My question is what gives you the sense ( if you do believe this, don't want to put words in your mouth) that he can be developed? This is his 3rd year being trained as a pocket passer, by multiple regimes, and he still isn't there. How long do we give him and how much more money do we invest?

 

[j_y19]

A classic mexican standoff:

Griffin has shown he can run like a gazelle, has little pocket presence, can't consistently
read/anticipate defenses, is generally inaccurate, is brittle and has an immense ego.

Redskins, thru two regimes, have shown they are unwilling or unable to 'fix' Griffin
and adapt him, even marginally, to their needs.

So, keeping Griffin festering on the bench in hopes of him improving his real value
to the Skins or perceived value to other teams is a pipedream.

Either cut him or trade him for a cheesesteak and stop the bleeding.

I agree. How many of these Mexican standoff shave we seen under the Snyder ownership?

 

[Stymietee]

So for the sake of the discussion, I'll agree he was mis handled. But by your response, you seem to agree that Robert is very culpable in the number of sacks he takes. It may be due to his mishandling, bad drafting evaluation, lack of training, whatever. My question is what gives you the sense ( if you do believe this, don't want to put words in your mouth) that he can be developed? This is his 3rd year being trained as a pocket passer, by multiple regimes, and he still isn't there. How long do we give him and how much more money do we invest?

If by culpable you mean that he's the one with the ball, then yeah. Putting either of us in the same position (assuming were are both 21 can run and throw) would amount to the same result.
We disagree on this being his 3rd year receiving training as a pocket passer. From day one he was inserted into the lineup to play, not develop. Shanahan said as much, then followed his words up by dumming down the offense once the team hit 3-6 in his first year. When Griffin balked the second year things turned south, why? Because no one was willing to do what was in the best interest of the player and team namely sit him and train him. This is the 1st year of training him, and doing what's best for the long term future of this team. Hiring Matt Cavanaugh happened in 2015 prior to that it was Matt Lafleur, compare the resume's and tell me what you think. The real or imagined concussion apparently has done what no one else dared to do........put him on the bench and let him learn behind a more experienced player. I'm guessing that he's still an intelligent young man, which comes in handy if there's something to be learned.

 

[Sportster 72]

I said this the other day and will say it again. It isn't just the media going on and on about this. People here are more worried about whether Griffin is 2nd or 3rd string. Cousins is starting, for now that is all that matters. He hasn't had a full season as a starter. He is going to have games when he struggles. If that happens and Gruden pulls him after a couple of games again then they are just going to play musical QBs all year again.

 

[skinsdad62]

You've always insisted that reports are null and void unless there is a name attached to it. Are you saying now that Gruden lied during camp?

My previous point about improvement from the point of view of members of this site answers your second piece relating to how many times have you heard......................

Improvement for us can be far less discerning than how it is viewed from those who are paid to make those judgements.

no what i am saying is looking good in shorts is very different

 

[j_y19]

If by culpable you mean that he's the one with the ball, then yeah. Putting either of us in the same position (assuming were are both 21 can run and throw) would amount to the same result.
We disagree on this being his 3rd year receiving training as a pocket passer. From day one he was inserted into the lineup to play, not develop. Shanahan said as much, then followed his words up by dumming down the offense once the team hit 3-6 in his first year. When Griffin balked the second year things turned south, why? Because no one was willing to do what was in the best interest of the player and team namely sit him and train him. This is the 1st year of training him, and doing what's best for the long term future of this team. Hiring Matt Cavanaugh happened in 2015 prior to that it was Matt Lafleur, compare the resume's and tell me what you think. The real or imagined concussion apparently has done what no one else dared to do........put him on the bench and let him learn behind a more experienced player. I'm guessing that he's still an intelligent young man, which comes in handy if there's something to be learned.

Wow. I agree to a point, but you have (conviently?) left out quite a bit of history as it pertains to Robert's responsibilties and actions that have led him and the franchise to this point. It is my belief (as I believe it isxyours) that ultimately it is a dysfunctional franchise that continues to cause self inflicted wounds. But Robert is not innocent in his failures. He and his advisors, ownership, coaches, fans, and media all have a hand in it. BuT I've come to believe that he would not have succeeded anywhere else. He lacks in two critical areas. First, he does not have the intuition to be a pocket QB. He doesn't have that sense, or presence, in the pocket. I don't believe this is a learned trait. You sense pressure and move to an opening while keeping focused downfield. When pressured, he naturally reverts to back pedaling, usually right into an outside rusher that is being blocked to the outside. Second, he doesn't have the natural ability to protect himself. Have you ever seen Wilson take a hit? If it's unavoidable, he gets small. Into a ball. Robert gets hit and he looks like a rag doll flying though the air, all elbows and knees flying akimbo. These discrepancies I believe would have led to his failure no matter where he played.