Game Thread: NHL Games - 1-12-15

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Against the Leafs, Muggsy Bogues would be a beast.

Leafs limited the number of shots against to a very reasonable number, at least that part is encouraging.

 

[esls79]

Leafs limited the number of shots against to a very reasonable number, at least that part is encouraging.

But only getting 19 shots and being shut out by the other team's backup is not all that encouraging (unless you are Dallas Eakins, then that's a good game by the boys)

 

[dash]

But only getting 19 shots and being shut out by the other team's backup is not all that encouraging (unless you are Dallas Eakins, then that's a good game by the boys)

Agreed, that is less encouraging. Based on some of the highlights I saw, though, Leafs appeared to have several grade 'A' scoring chances, but couldn't put the biscuit behind Jones.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Leafs limited the number of shots against to a very reasonable number, at least that part is encouraging.

Kings had given up 16 goals in their past 3 games going into this one. Leafs couldn't squeeze one through?

I didn't watch the game, but apparently the Leafs played dull, boring hockey and their fancy stats numbers were impressive and have been since Horachuk took over. Is this what I have to look forward to? Mind-numbingly dull hockey that leaves the team winning just as many games as they did under Carlyle but with better shot attempt and possession numbers? Is that what's considered a win here?

 

[Cobiemonster]

Kings had given up 16 goals in their past 3 games going into this one. Leafs couldn't squeeze one through?

I didn't watch the game, but apparently the Leafs played dull, boring hockey and their fancy stats numbers were impressive and have been since Horachuk took over. Is this what I have to look forward to? Mind-numbingly dull hockey that leaves the team winning just as many games as they did under Carlyle but with better shot attempt and possession numbers? Is that what's considered a win here?

With the offense that the Leafs have had this season, if they keep playing dull hockey, eventually the goals will come when it matters the most

This looks very similar to how the Kings were at times after Darryl Sutter first came in - boring hockey, good possession numbers and the goals didn't come early but later on when it mattered they scored - now the Leafs don't have a Drew Doughty or Anze Kopitar but the point is that would you rather have boring hockey now with the possibility of better results later, or have exciting hockey where you win some games here and there and get on streaks but then get rope-a-dope'd into thinking they are really that good when you know they're not?

I'm not singling you out by any means, but Leafs fans in general need to remove their head from their asses - they complain that Carlyle isn't jack shit and that the team has played no defense for him but now that they're playing defense everyone complains that there's no excitement with the team anymore - what do you guys want? You can't have it both ways - that's why people can't stand Leafs fans in general, if you want the team to play better defensively then you have to take the ups and downs of a team trying to build a defensive identity, which means there will be games in which the team looks boring - Kings fans went through this for the first few months under Darryl Sutter - the team played much better defense and the goals started coming because of it

You have to start somewhere and it's not like the Leafs are winning anything of significance this season anyways, and if it's really about the future with this team(which Leafs fans like you are looking forward to), then the fact that they're actually trying to play good defense now should make you happy because it can make your team better in the future

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

With the offense that the Leafs have had this season, if they keep playing dull hockey, eventually the goals will come when it matters the most

This looks very similar to how the Kings were at times after Darryl Sutter first came in - boring hockey, good possession numbers and the goals didn't come early but later on when it mattered they scored - now the Leafs don't have a Drew Doughty or Anze Kopitar but the point is that would you rather have boring hockey now with the possibility of better results later, or have exciting hockey where you win some games here and there and get on streaks but then get rope-a-dope'd into thinking they are really that good when you know they're not?

I'm not singling you out by any means, but Leafs fans in general need to remove their head from their asses - they complain that Carlyle isn't jack shit and that the team has played no defense for him but now that they're playing defense everyone complains that there's no excitement with the team anymore - what do you guys want? You can't have it both ways - that's why people can't stand Leafs fans in general, if you want the team to play better defensively then you have to take the ups and downs of a team trying to build a defensive identity, which means there will be games in which the team looks boring - Kings fans went through this for the first few months under Darryl Sutter - the team played much better defense and the goals started coming because of it

You have to start somewhere and it's not like the Leafs are winning anything of significance this season anyways, and if it's really about the future with this team(which Leafs fans like you are looking forward to), then the fact that they're actually trying to play good defense now should make you happy because it can make your team better in the future

This is the end-all be-all of it. They aren't winning shit this year, so if they have the ability to turn in better defensive performances, great, just trade all the scoring and make sure they don't start winning meaningless games and wind up in 9th place and get a 15th overall pick in June, because that has been the modus operandi for the Leafs for a decade - mediocrity shrouded in growth.

I get that beggars can't be choosers, but I really don't want to be put to sleep watching my favourite hockey team. I'd much rather suffer for another year or two and watch them make the right moves so that in 5 years, they're fun as fuck to watch and also up with the contenders.

 

[Cobiemonster]

This is the end-all be-all of it. They aren't winning shit this year, so if they have the ability to turn in better defensive performances, great, just trade all the scoring and make sure they don't start winning meaningless games and wind up in 9th place and get a 15th overall pick in June, because that has been the modus operandi for the Leafs for a decade - mediocrity shrouded in growth.

I get that beggars can't be choosers, but I really don't want to be put to sleep watching my favourite hockey team. I'd much rather suffer for another year or two and watch them make the right moves so that in 5 years, they're fun as fuck to watch and also up with the contenders.

I think for a team that has not played the right way for many years, they need to play better defensive performances and instill those traits - and I'm not sure if trading all the scoring is going to help them in that manner - they need to play the right way as a team and if they make the playoffs, then good for them(they still have a legit shot when you look at the standings), if not, then they have guys like William Nylander in the system and with the draft being deep, even with a 15th-ish pick they can always maneuver at the draft and trade that pick along with roster players to move up if they so choose

I don't think you can start shredding the team down and getting rid of guys just so you can get a higher pick - that one player isn't going to completely change the team - the culture needs to change and it takes 20+ guys to do that, not one guy - trading two or three or four guys before the deadline just to move up in the draft is going to set the team back even more - they're not that far off - if they get a defensive system where guys commit to it and they can get a top flight d-man along with another piece or two up front, they're a much better team - they have the goaltender to make a deep run so they're not completely barren of talent - their forward depth is much better now than it was 3-4 years ago - it takes time to rebuild a team after previous regimes have screwed it up - you look at so many teams around the league who are just recovering now after previous regimes have set franchises back 5-10 years - if you're the Leafs, you can't start trading everyone now just to get a higher pick, that will only set them back even further - keep most the guys you have unless you get a great deal, work to have a better team culture and in the next five years you can achieve the same amount of success - the franchise needs winning, not more losing, no matter what the results might come out of it(higher picks, etc)

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I think for a team that has not played the right way for many years, they need to play better defensive performances and instill those traits - and I'm not sure if trading all the scoring is going to help them in that manner - they need to play the right way as a team and if they make the playoffs, then good for them(they still have a legit shot when you look at the standings), if not, then they have guys like William Nylander in the system and with the draft being deep, even with a 15th-ish pick they can always maneuver at the draft and trade that pick along with roster players to move up if they so choose

I don't think you can start shredding the team down and getting rid of guys just so you can get a higher pick - that one player isn't going to completely change the team - the culture needs to change and it takes 20+ guys to do that, not one guy - trading two or three or four guys before the deadline just to move up in the draft is going to set the team back even more - they're not that far off - if they get a defensive system where guys commit to it and they can get a top flight d-man along with another piece or two up front, they're a much better team - they have the goaltender to make a deep run so they're not completely barren of talent - their forward depth is much better now than it was 3-4 years ago - it takes time to rebuild a team after previous regimes have screwed it up - you look at so many teams around the league who are just recovering now after previous regimes have set franchises back 5-10 years - if you're the Leafs, you can't start trading everyone now just to get a higher pick, that will only set them back even further - keep most the guys you have unless you get a great deal, work to have a better team culture and in the next five years you can achieve the same amount of success - the franchise needs winning, not more losing, no matter what the results might come out of it(higher picks, etc)

Thing is, they might be able to squeeze a few more firsts out of contending teams. Tell me somebody wouldn't send over a great package for JVR right now? Tell me one of the contenders wouldn't give up a meaningless first rounder for Bozak's $4 million contract?

The core they have is never, ever going to contend. Period. As we established last week, the Leafs' first line can't defend at all. You simply cannot win with that being the case. And since first line centres don't grow on trees, the only option left is to draft one and why not give yourself more shots at getting it right by having more picks with which to find one/trade up?

Also, as long as Dion Phaneuf is anywhere near this team they are fucked anyway so....

 

[Cobiemonster]

Thing is, they might be able to squeeze a few more firsts out of contending teams. Tell me somebody wouldn't send over a great package for JVR right now? Tell me one of the contenders wouldn't give up a meaningless first rounder for Bozak's $4 million contract?

The core they have is never, ever going to contend. Period. As we established last week, the Leafs' first line can't defend at all. You simply cannot win with that being the case. And since first line centres don't grow on trees, the only option left is to draft one and why not give yourself more shots at getting it right by having more picks with which to find one/trade up?

Also, as long as Dion Phaneuf is anywhere near this team they are fucked anyway so....

Wait, you say they could squeeze a few more firsts out of contending teams as if those picks are meaningful, then you proceed to say two lines later that those first rounders are meaningless? If they're meaningful to the Leafs, then why wouldn't they be meaningful to other teams? Why would teams want a guy like Bozak if you're making him out to be someone who is part of the reason this team can't contend?

All I'm saying is, you can't say this team needs to squeeze a few more first rounders by trading these guys then say they will never contend with those guys - it gives the impression to other teams that those guys can't get it done there and that those are guys that won't help a team win when it matters most

Personally, I think the Leafs need to hold onto these guys and keep building - the thing I said earlier was that I would wait to make a trade until the draft because you can make a real good deal then - you're not getting shit at the trade deadline if you're moving guys like JVR and Bozak because nobody is willing to give up a significant amount at that point - do you think the Canucks would have gotten that package for Kesler if they made the move at the deadline last year? The Ducks weren't going to give up all those pieces mid-season - maybe at the draft you package JVR and your first rounder to get a top flight center whether it's by moving up in the draft or by making a trade with a team

The Leafs aren't going to be able to do anything of significance before the deadline - rarely are there any deals like that at the deadline now - too many teams are in it therefore teams feel like they're good enough as is and don't want to shake up their roster at that point in the season

Leafs need to do their damage at the draft, that's where it's going to happen

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Wait, you say they could squeeze a few more firsts out of contending teams as if those picks are meaningful, then you proceed to say two lines later that those first rounders are meaningless? If they're meaningful to the Leafs, then why wouldn't they be meaningful to other teams? Why would teams want a guy like Bozak if you're making him out to be someone who is part of the reason this team can't contend?

All I'm saying is, you can't say this team needs to squeeze a few more first rounders by trading these guys then say they will never contend with those guys - it gives the impression to other teams that those guys can't get it done there and that those are guys that won't help a team win when it matters most

Personally, I think the Leafs need to hold onto these guys and keep building - the thing I said earlier was that I would wait to make a trade until the draft because you can make a real good deal then - you're not getting shit at the trade deadline if you're moving guys like JVR and Bozak because nobody is willing to give up a significant amount at that point - do you think the Canucks would have gotten that package for Kesler if they made the move at the deadline last year? The Ducks weren't going to give up all those pieces mid-season - maybe at the draft you package JVR and your first rounder to get a top flight center whether it's by moving up in the draft or by making a trade with a team

The Leafs aren't going to be able to do anything of significance before the deadline - rarely are there any deals like that at the deadline now - too many teams are in it therefore teams feel like they're good enough as is and don't want to shake up their roster at that point in the season

Leafs need to do their damage at the draft, that's where it's going to happen

The Leafs need as many first rounders as they can get, but they also need an early pick (who doesn't?) that has a higher probability of becoming a talented NHLer.

Those first round picks owned by contenders (ie: the one Pittsburgh gave up for Perron) are trade fodder for them, for the most part. Meaningless to them, valuable to a rebuilding club.

Bozak is part of the problem playing first line centre in Toronto. Maybe he's a part of a solution as a second line centre on a defensively-responsible team elsewhere? At his cap hit and his numbers, however inflated they may be as a result of playing with Kessel, I'm sure somebody would take the bait.

The Leafs will never contend with this group together, but these pieces are valuable separated. JVR makes peanuts for another 2 or 3 years and is in the midst of his second straight 30 goal season and is probably going to set career highs in goals and points. You don't think he has high-as-hell trade value?

If it can't get done during the season, then it can't get done during the season. It'd help the team a lot more in the long-term, though, if this season became a wash sooner rather than later.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

All this talk of tanking by the Leafs, and sadly by more than a few Sens fans, is so goddam dumb.

There is 0% chance that Toronto (or Ottawa for that matter) will be as bad as Edmonton, Buffalo, Carolina or Arizona this year. These teams have been tanking from the get go, in results at least. There isn't much chance of them falling below New Jersey either.

So we're tanking for 6th over all now? There just isn't much difference between 6th and say 10-14 in any particular draft. Here is a list of all the 6th overall picks in between 2000 and 2010 (most likely to be making an impact in today's NHL).

Brett Connolly
OEL
Nikita Filatov
Sam Gagner
Derick Brassard
Gilbert Brule
Al Montoya
Milan Michalek
Scottie Upshall
Mikko Koivu
Scott Hartnell

There is not a single player there who is turning around a franchise. Could one be available in that slot? Sure. But the probability of them being there rather than at 15th is negligible.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

All this talk of tanking by the Leafs, and sadly by more than a few Sens fans, is so goddam dumb.

There is 0% chance that Toronto (or Ottawa for that matter) will be as bad as Edmonton, Buffalo, Carolina or Arizona this year. These teams have been tanking from the get go, in results at least. There isn't much chance of them falling below New Jersey either.

So we're tanking for 6th over all now? There just isn't much difference between 6th and say 10-14 in any particular draft. Here is a list of all the 6th overall picks in between 2000 and 2010 (most likely to be making an impact in today's NHL).

Brett Connolly
OEL
Nikita Filatov
Sam Gagner
Derick Brassard
Gilbert Brule
Al Montoya
Milan Michalek
Scottie Upshall
Mikko Koivu
Scott Hartnell

There is not a single player there who is turning around a franchise. Could one be available in that slot? Sure. But the probability of them being there rather than at 15th is negligible.

If you expand that selection to slots 5-9, you get Jeff Skinner, Braydon Schenn, Jared Cowan, Jakub Voracek, Logan Couture, Phil Kessel, Kyle Okposo, Carey Price, Tomas Vanek, Ryan Suter and Joffrey Lupul.

From slots 10-15, you get Erik Karlsson, Kevin Shattenkirk, Jonathan Bernier, Anze Kopitar, Marc Staal, Jeff Carter, Brent Seabrook, Alex Semin, Dan Hamhuis and Ales Hemsky.

...

Alright, fuck it, draft's a crap shoot. I still think the Leafs can bottom da fuck out, though.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

If you expand that selection to slots 5-9, you get Jeff Skinner, Braydon Schenn, Jared Cowan, Jakub Voracek, Logan Couture, Phil Kessel, Kyle Okposo, Carey Price, Tomas Vanek, Ryan Suter and Joffrey Lupul.

From slots 10-15, you get Erik Karlsson, Kevin Shattenkirk, Jonathan Bernier, Anze Kopitar, Marc Staal, Jeff Carter, Brent Seabrook, Alex Semin, Dan Hamhuis and Ales Hemsky.

...

Alright, fuck it, draft's a crap shoot. I still think the Leafs can bottom da fuck out, though.

After the top 4 the draft really is a lot of luck, I agree.

Sorry but your team is just not THAT bad. Neither is mine. I'd rather see the young guys battle their brains out for a playoff spot for as long as they can rather than tank. For a young team I think that means more than moving up a few spots in the draft.

Now if we were talking about a move from 5-6th to 1st-2nd I might take a different stance.

 

[dash]

I don't even think McJesus is enough to turn the Oilers around (but he'll certainly help).

 

[Cobiemonster]

The Leafs need as many first rounders as they can get, but they also need an early pick (who doesn't?) that has a higher probability of becoming a talented NHLer.

Those first round picks owned by contenders (ie: the one Pittsburgh gave up for Perron) are trade fodder for them, for the most part. Meaningless to them, valuable to a rebuilding club.

Bozak is part of the problem playing first line centre in Toronto. Maybe he's a part of a solution as a second line centre on a defensively-responsible team elsewhere? At his cap hit and his numbers, however inflated they may be as a result of playing with Kessel, I'm sure somebody would take the bait.

The Leafs will never contend with this group together, but these pieces are valuable separated. JVR makes peanuts for another 2 or 3 years and is in the midst of his second straight 30 goal season and is probably going to set career highs in goals and points. You don't think he has high-as-hell trade value?

If it can't get done during the season, then it can't get done during the season. It'd help the team a lot more in the long-term, though, if this season became a wash sooner rather than later.

Trust me, all the damn picks the Penguins have been giving up for years for players will eventually come back to bite them because they keep trying to win while Sid is in his prime(can't blame them either, but that's just the reality)

You need depth in this league in order to win, if you're trading a bunch of guys in hopes that you can get one or two superstars, it's going to be difficult - that's why it takes time to rebuild and that you can't find quick fixes, even if you trade guys like JVR and so on

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

After the top 4 the draft really is a lot of luck, I agree.

Sorry but your team is just not THAT bad. Neither is mine. I'd rather see the young guys battle their brains out for a playoff spot for as long as they can rather than tank. For a young team I think that means more than moving up a few spots in the draft.

Now if we were talking about a move from 5-6th to 1st-2nd I might take a different stance.

Problem is, you have a young team. The Leafs have young pieces but are handicapped by their contracts for underperforming vets. I don't see any possible progress for them unless they start freeing up space so that if the opportunity arises for them to improve via trade, they can actually swing a deal. If moving Kessel is a non-starter and moving Phaneuf is impossible and Lupul unlikely given his injuries, what else can they even do at this point but dismantle other pieces of their top six?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Trust me, all the damn picks the Penguins have been giving up for years for players will eventually come back to bite them because they keep trying to win while Sid is in his prime(can't blame them either, but that's just the reality)

You need depth in this league in order to win, if you're trading a bunch of guys in hopes that you can get one or two superstars, it's going to be difficult - that's why it takes time to rebuild and that you can't find quick fixes, even if you trade guys like JVR and so on

Agree with the top comment, especially when combined with how terribly they drafted for years with the picks they kept.

I understand your second point, but I feel like that's the path they've been on for 8 years now and fuck, when do you just toss the novel in the waste bin and begin again from chapter 1? I feel like now is the best time.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Agree with the top comment, especially when combined with how terribly they drafted for years with the picks they kept.

I understand your second point, but I feel like that's the path they've been on for 8 years now and fuck, when do you just toss the novel in the waste bin and begin again from chapter 1? I feel like now is the best time.

Honestly, it's not like the Leafs are THAT bad - they're still right in the thick of the playoff race and you'd think considering how much negativity has shined on them that they're a team that's going nowhere - if they can fix a thing here and there then they can be a bonafide team - why waste Jonathan Bernier's prime years anyways? I just think there are better ways to improving the team than to blow it up - there's been enough losing there and there's always the risk that if you go back to square one that you'll never get back up the ladder

Do I think the current guys the Leafs have are good enough for a cup or even a cup run? I don't see it, absolutely not, but it doesn't mean those guys should be all traded, the key is finding a superstar, whether it's by packaging one or two of them or by finding one in the draft - those guys would be really good second options if they had a number one option

 

[beantownmaniac]

So what games are you guys watching?