Just out of curiosity...

[BroncoInCALI]

A possible stud DT in a rotation with 3 vet DTs having nice seasons. I'll take it.

Hopefully Vickerson has gotten all the sumo wrestler shots at QBs out of his system, because I love the way he has played this season.

Sly developing with Malik Jackson and Derek Wolfe gives us a bright future up front. Major props to Robert Ayers as well. Dude's shoulder was pretty banged up. Seems like he is playing pretty solid through the pain.

 

[TDs3nOut]

It's not just what my dad told me. I was simply using that story to illustrate my point. I too, watched Trevor Pryce play as a rookie.

But again, if he was such a stud, why did he only play in 8 games? You say it was because he was a rookie on a Super Bowl team,but he was a stud right out of the gate (according to you), so why didn't he play all 16 games?

But I guess a great talent evaluator such as yourself knew a lot more than the Broncos coaches who just refused to play this stud rookie dt for 8 games that season.

Why do you continue ignoring the comparison of Pryce's rookie stats that you posted with those of Vickerson and Knighton through nine games this year? I think I might know the answer to that question.

 

[Broncos6482]

Why do you continue ignoring the comparison of Pryce's rookie stats that you posted with those of Vickerson and Knighton through nine games this year? I think I might know the answer to that question.

I haven't looked up their stats because stats don't tell much of the story for defensive tackles. And offenses have changed so much since 1997 that it wouldn't be a fair comparison anyway.

But just to humor you, Vickerson has 18 tackles and no sacks and Knighton has 14 tackles and 3 sacks. While both have played ok (Knighton moreso than Vickerson in my opinion), I wouldn't call either one a "stud."

 

[TDs3nOut]

I haven't looked up their stats because stats don't tell much of the story for defensive tackles. And offenses have changed so much since 1997 that it wouldn't be a fair comparison anyway.

But just to humor you, Vickerson has 18 tackles and no sacks and Knighton has 14 tackles and 3 sacks. While both have played ok (Knighton moreso than Vickerson in my opinion), I wouldn't call either one a "stud."

LOL I pointed that out in my response to your criticism of my first post, yet you posted TP's rookie stats to make your case that he wasn't much of a contributor his rookie year.

How about a guy whose rookie stats in eight games nearly equal the combined stats through nine games of two guys who have been in the league for 13 years and have started every game this year?

 

[cdumler7]

LOL I pointed that out in my response to your criticism of my first post, yet you posted TP's rookie stats to make your case that he wasn't much of a contributor his rookie year.

How about a guy whose rookie stats in eight games nearly equal the combined stats through nine games of two guys who have been in the league for 13 years and have started every game this year?

You are talking about 2 entirely different defensive systems though in what is the responsibility of the DT. You really can't compare the two at this point. Knighton and Vickerson are 660 lbs. of brick wall that allow our smaller Linebackers to use their speed to make plays. That 1997 team if I remember right used a lot of smoke and mirrors to try and create pressure and turnovers.

 

[TDs3nOut]

You are talking about 2 entirely different defensive systems though in what is the responsibility of the DT. You really can't compare the two at this point. Knighton and Vickerson are 660 lbs. of brick wall that allow our smaller Linebackers to use their speed to make plays. That 1997 team if I remember right used a lot of smoke and mirrors to try and create pressure and turnovers.

ot trying t

Fair point. I'm not even claiming that Pryce was a better player his rookie year than either Knighton or Vickerson are now. I simply object to the claim that Pryce wasn't much of a contributor his rookie year and that it wasn't evident that he was going to be a very good player. In my opinion -- and I think there was a thread about it this past summer -- Elway's comparison of Sly to TP, along with the fact that he is older than a typical rookie, raised expectations of what we could reasonably expect from Sly this yeacr. In any event, I find it very hypocritical to post TP's rookie stats to show that he didn't do much and then claim that DT stats aren't particularly meaningful, a point that I first raised early in this thread.

 

[Broncos6482]

ot trying t

Fair point. I'm not even claiming that Pryce was a better player his rookie year than either Knighton or Vickerson are now. I simply object to the claim that Pryce wasn't much of a contributor his rookie year and that it wasn't evident that he was going to be a very good player. In my opinion -- and I think there was a thread about it this past summer -- Elway's comparison of Sly to TP, along with the fact that he is older than a typical rookie, raised expectations of what we could reasonably expect from Sly this yeacr. In any event, I find it very hypocritical to post TP's rookie stats to show that he didn't do much and then claim that DT stats aren't particularly meaningful, a point that I first raised early in this thread.

You entirely missed the point. Compare Pryce's stats his rookie year to some of his other years. Huge, HUGE jump in production. And the main point about Pryce's rookie season was that HE ONLY PLAYED IN 8 GAMES.

So let's see; only played in half the team's games, and had a huge jump in production later years. Yeah, I'd say it's fair to say he wasn't a stud right out of the gate, despite what you choose to believe.

 

[WalkerBoh]

Okay, here's the deal. You CAN'T compare Pryce's rookie stats to Knighton and Vickerson and use that to say he was " T. Pryce, Stud DT" out of the gate, if you're trying to counter 6482's argument. They're two completely different subjects.

It is obvious that Pryce wasn't quite as good his rookie season as he was later in his career. Yes, once he got out on the field, he played well. However, there's a reason he only started 8 games. Denver's defensive coaches felt he needed that time to develop and adjust to the NFL game. The point is that S. Williams' situation isn't much different. Denver is giving him that same time to develop. The main difference is, our DT's are deeper now than they were then. We can afford to give Williams more time because our other DT's are playing very well.

It seems TD is trying to say Williams is a bust because he isn't having a similar rookie season as Pryce (whom Elway compared Williams to). This argument is also disingenious because you can't make that determination based on less than a single full season. Usually you need to see 2-3 seasons before determining if a player busts.

So, yes, while Trevor Pryce played well over his 8 games his rookie season, he wasn't THE Trevor Pryce until a little later. He wasn't the stud we got used to seeing right out of the gate. Was he better than our current DT's? Maybe statwise, but our current DT's are also playing much better against the run than Pryce and our DT's did back then. So it's not necessarily an even comparison.

 

[Broncos6482]

Great post, Walker.

 

[Morpheus]

Different defensive scheme, different rules from that era.

The NFL is a more pass-centric league. Less running attempts, so tackles and assists stats are dropping.

And they are not really a good measure of overall performance anyway.

Not to mention it is impossible to make any kind of complete assessment on Sly considering how little he has played. Need at least 2 years.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Great post, Walker.

LMAO Figures you'd think so, since it totally misrepresents what I posted! I never wrote anything even remotely suggesting that Williams is a bust.

 

[WalkerBoh]

LMAO Figures you'd think so, since it totally misrepresents what I posted! I never wrote anything even remotely suggesting that Williams is a bust.

Elway's comparison of Sly to TP, along with the fact that he is older than a typical rookie, raised expectations of what we could reasonably expect from Sly this yeacr.

Maybe I should have said that Williams hasn't met the expectations you had after Elway said he was similar to Pryce?

 

[TDs3nOut]

Maybe I should have said that Williams hasn't met the expectations you had after Elway said he was similar to Pryce?

That seems much more accurate, doesn't it? No big deal, though.

You did make some good points. Obviously I agree with our opinion that Pryce played well as a rookie. Equally obvious is that he didn't play nearly as well that first year as he did in his second year or any other year before he hurt his back and was moved outside.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Probably ought to just let it go, but I am apparently too petty to do that! Just looked up the team defensive stats and learned that TP, in his eight games, was second among our DTs with 24 tackles. Kieth Traylor was first with 38. Traylor also had a 62 yard INT returned for a TD that year. Don't remember that play, but I find the mental image of Traylor beating every opposing player down the field on that long of a run amusing.

 

[Broncos6482]

Probably ought to just let it go, but I am apparently too petty to do that!

Can't say that surprises me.

Traylor also had a 62 yard INT returned for a TD that year. Don't remember that play, but I find the mental image of Traylor beating every opposing player down the field on that long of a run amusing.

So you remember watching enough of Pryce to know that he was a stud, but you don't remember Traylor's pick 6 against the Bills?

That play and game really stands out from that year. The blizzard in Denver that almost kept the team from making it to Buffalo, the Broncos jumping out to the 20-0 lead, the Bills somehow coming back to tie it, and the Broncos finally winning in overtime after Shanahan decided to take the wind in ot rather than the ball.