Jorge Soler

[thecrow124]

It is kind of upsetting that we aren't mentioned amongst those teams that are heavily bidding on him. You would think with the way we have spent recently in the draft and with international fa's that we would be near the top in bidding for his services. In the end i doubt that we could outbid the Cubs or Yankees for him, but the lack of mention just kine if gets to me. In a draft hw would probably be the the beat talent available this year and with the exception of Harper and Strasburg, the best talent in the last 10.

 

[element1286]

Yea, I guess it depends on how much he signs for.

 

[sychmd]

what position is he and how old is he.

 

[Illinest]

We ARE listed as one of the teams that has expressed interest but it is believed that it will take more than 25 million to get him signed. NH said something about 'internal value' so I'm optimistic that we made an offer but I doubt we would make the winning offer.

As for the player - 19 years old, projected to start in single A. Five tool right-fielder. Plus power, good defense, strong arm, runs well. Athletic. The only concern is hitting for average. If he can hit for average then he's a star in the making.

Not a Bryce Harper level talent but could be realistically said to be second after Harper among the most recent generation of big-time talents.

If a miracle transpired and the Pirates acquired him he'd be a candidate to replace Cole at the top of our prospect list and would be a possible fast-mover.

 

[element1286]

Yea, I'd probably put him a lot closer to Josh Bell talent level than Harper. I don't think he is worth anywhere near 25 million, probably closer to 10 million would be a fair price.

 

[thecrow124]

Yea, I'd probably put him a lot closer to Josh Bell talent level than Harper. I don't think he is worth anywhere near 25 million, probably closer to 10 million would be a fair price.

I disagree with this, he is far more advanced than Bell, and has a higher upside than Bell. Not on a level with Harper, or Trout, but probably only a half a step down from there. Since he is a FA, I would say he is much cloer to the $25 million number than the $10 million number. Especially if you can get him for 6 years.

 

[thecrow124]

Soler agrees to a deal with the Cubs. Now remember back to this past winter when the Cubs "DIDN'T" have a deal in place, who couldn't see this coming. I would be willing to bet that if some team offered a better deal and he still went to the Cubs, that that non-deal gets re-visited.

 

[magnumo]

Not surprised by Soler signing with the Cubs @ $30 million for 9 years. They have the money and the guy is only 20. I'm happy that the Bucs didn't get into a bidding war with the Cubs and Yankees at that level. On the other hand, Soler may prove to be a bargain if he becomes successful at the major league level. But that's a big if.

For reference, Cespedes (26) got $36 million for 4 years with the A's. Cespedes' current OPS is .826 in the majors (10 points below Cutch's rookie year).

I've read that Soler likely will start in the lower minors.

Both Soler and Cespedes were pretty expensive free agents..... probably beyond what the Pirates should pursue, given the circumstances.

 

[Etrius24]

I am really looking forward to draft reform...So that all teams have access to young talent everywhere in central and south america... I grow tired of the top talents moving to another country to get resident status so they can become free agents...And then teams like the Royals and Pirates miss out on them because they cannot just get into bidding wars with the yankees and cubs...

 

[sychmd]

I am really looking forward to draft reform...So that all teams have access to young talent everywhere in central and south america... I grow tired of the top talents moving to another country to get resident status so they can become free agents...And then teams like the Royals and Pirates miss out on them because they cannot just get into bidding wars with the yankees and cubs...

i am unaware of players moving out of country. can you name a couple that have made it and what their perceived or actualized gain was by employing that strategy.

 

[Etrius24]

Any player from Cuba... they go specifically to the Dominican Republic to avoid the draft and get instant free agent status. If the Cuban defector goes to US soil first... they are subject to the draft... So they avoid the usa until they gain residency in another latin american country to become a free agent.

 

[thecrow124]

Any player from Cuba... they go specifically to the Dominican Republic to avoid the draft and get instant free agent status. If the Cuban defector goes to US soil first... they are subject to the draft... So they avoid the usa until they gain residency in another latin american country to become a free agent.

UUhhhhhhhhh, they establish resedency in the Dominican or some other place because Cuban's can not even get a work visa to the United States. The only way they would be able to play in the US is if they establish resedency outside of Cuba first. To establish resedency in the US, that can take up to 9 years, but can't even be done by a Cuban national until they first gain resedency elsewhere I think, I could be wrong, I guess I am not as up on my naturalization policies as maybe I should be.

Furthermore, I fail to see how any of this is relevant, because the Pirates and Royals can both afford $30 million over 9 years.

 

[Etrius24]

Crow... Hang back a second... and ask yourself why no cuban defector establishes residency in the USA???? it is because they would be subject to the draft... any cuban defector gets protection once they put one foot on US soil... if they take a rubber tire raft to south florida... once they step on land they get status guaranteed... But no cuban player comes directly to the USA

and the Pirates might have 30 million in the bank but not many teams can afford to gamble with 30 million dollars for a guy who barely deserves to go to A ball....

 

[sychmd]

thanks for the cuban update. i think we have all heard of these situations every 2-3 years.
but other than cubans, does this strategy apply to anyone else. that is what i am not aware of.

 

[thecrow124]

Crow... Hang back a second... and ask yourself why no cuban defector establishes residency in the USA???? it is because they would be subject to the draft... any cuban defector gets protection once they put one foot on US soil... if they take a rubber tire raft to south florida... once they step on land they get status guaranteed... But no cuban player comes directly to the USAand the Pirates might have 30 million in the bank but not many teams can afford to gamble with 30 million dollars for a guy who barely deserves to go to A ball....

No one, and I don't care if they are a Cuban, Mexican, English, Dutch, or Martian is allowed, LEGALLY, to enter the united states ILLEGALLY. They must obtain a work visa, and to do that they have to have a residency in a country that the U.S. does free trade with. Otherwise they face extradition to their original country. Ask Elian Gonzalez.

 

[magnumo]

thanks for the cuban update. i think we have all heard of these situations every 2-3 years.
but other than cubans, does this strategy apply to anyone else. that is what i am not aware of.

It doesn't happen, "except for Cubans." It hasn't in the past, and it won't under the new CBA rules. Soler establishing residency in the Dominican is not relevant to any changes in the CBA rules; there is no new rule which would impact Soler's need to establish residency outside of Cuba. He would need to do that under the new CBA in the same way as he did under the old CBA.

The draft (under both the old CBA and the new CBA) applies only to prospects from the USA (including Puerto Rico) and Canada. The draft does NOT apply to Latin America (e.g., the Dominican, Venezuela, Mexico, Panama, Aruba, etc., and of course, Cuba). Latin American players must be signed as free agents, anyway. That was true in the past AND is true under the new CBA.

If Cuba were not "communist Castro-land," Cuban players would be treated EXACTLY the same as players from other Latin America countries. That is, if Soler had been born and raised in the Dominican Republic, he would NOT be subject to the draft..... but would be available as a free agent in exactly the same fashion as he was after establishing residency in the Dominican. That was true under the old CBA and remains true under the new CBA.

The significant change imposed by the new CBA on Latin American players is the limits on total annual bonuses given to "international" free agents by each team. That limit for the first year will be $3 million total per team. My understanding is that there will be a sliding scale in future years, based on order of finish, i.e., teams which finish lower will have higher spending limits in the following year.

Soler was NOT affected by the new CBA rules ONLY because they don't go into effect until July 2, 2012, and the new rules change nothing about his need to establish residency outside of Cuba. (Moving from one country to another in Latin America is irrelevant, under both the old CBA and the new CBA.)

MLB continues to talk about the possibility of establishing an "international" draft at some time in the future..... either by expanding the existing draft to include players from around the world, or by creating a separate draft for "international" players. Many experts see too many obstacles to make such a draft feasible or likely in the near term.

 

[thecrow124]

In addition to what mags said, under the new CBA, players will have to declare themselves eligible, by providing a birth certificate as well as other verification documents. Many believe that this is step one in leading to an International draft. By 2014, it is highly lijely that we will have an International draft. However, Cuban born players will still have to gain resedency in another country, other than the U.S. because as a naturalized Cuban they cannot obtain a work visa in the U.S.

 

[Darkstone42]

The NHL has one draft which includes the entire world, and it goes over just fine. I don't see why these players couldn't just be put into the current draft. I can't imagine the procedure for declaring oneself a free agent and declaring oneself eligible for the draft would be all that different.

 

[magnumo]

The NHL has one draft which includes the entire world, and it goes over just fine. I don't see why these players couldn't just be put into the current draft. I can't imagine the procedure for declaring oneself a free agent and declaring oneself eligible for the draft would be all that different.

My guess is that it's all about the money.

I don't follow hockey closely enough to know how European hockey compares with the NHL. However, in baseball, I've seen speculation that the situation in Japan and Korea (especially Japan) may pose complications.

Japanese baseball is established enough, respected enough, and high-dollar enough to perhaps compete with MLB for some international players, under some circumstances, if they choose to do so. For example, with MLB imposing a limit of $3 million per team for all international players next year, there's already some indication that Japanese teams may outbid MLB teams for some Latin American players..... AND some indication that the buscones may steer their players toward Japan.

Heck..... I don't know how it will play out. Obviously, the MLBPA (who many observers view as the strongest union in the world) will have a significant impact, as well. Will they agree to an international draft? I haven't given that enough thought yet to have an opinion.

 

[Darkstone42]

My guess is that it's all about the money.

I don't follow hockey closely enough to know how European hockey compares with the NHL. However, in baseball, I've seen speculation that the situation in Japan and Korea (especially Japan) may pose complications.

Japanese baseball is established enough, respected enough, and high-dollar enough to perhaps compete with MLB for some international players, under some circumstances, if they choose to do so. For example, with MLB imposing a limit of $3 million per team for all international players next year, there's already some indication that Japanese teams may outbid MLB teams for some Latin American players..... AND some indication that the buscones may steer their players toward Japan.

Heck..... I don't know how it will play out. Obviously, the MLBPA (who many observers view as the strongest union in the world) will have a significant impact, as well. Will they agree to an international draft? I haven't given that enough thought yet to have an opinion.

The KHL in Russia can often outbid NHL teams for hockey talent, since they have a very different cap structure than the NHL and no (or at least much lower) taxes on their salaries. Hockey players tend to choose the NHL, though, because it's better competition, in general.

I guess it just comes down to the mentality of these young baseball players and what they want out of their careers. I do, however, think incorporating them into the draft could make the MLB more competitive in their monetary offers than the system they'll be using later this summer.