If you were Shanny

[Dacks]

It seems like we're always arguing about fines vs. suspensions and lengths of suspensions. But the arguments always degrade because some posters are debating what the penalty should be, while others are debating what the penalty should be with regard to precendents already set by Shanahan.

So, pretend there's no precedent. Choose a hit, and describe what disciplinarian action you would take.

One request - choose players and teams that are neutral to you. Let's avoid bias in this discussion.


As obvious a clearcut intent to injure as you can get. My rules on elbowing would go as follows:

Accidental / reckless elbow - 2min (similar to high stick)
Reckless elbow that leads to injure - 5min major
Intentional elbow to head of opponent - match penalty and one game suspension

After that, suspensions would depend on intent (80%) and injury to player (20%). In this case, Keith has absolutely no excuse. I would give him 10 games. If he did something similar within the next year, 20 games.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Ten games is fine for that. No prior history, but a very very dangerous play.

 

[oaknightshockey1]

i can agree with that, even as a blackhawks fan. i don't see why it is so hard to be unbiased.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I would say 10 would be about right, all things considered.

I would also like prior other status to work as a multiplier, rather than a factor. I.e., suspension is determined purely on the offense, the if it's first offense it's 1x, second offense it doubles, etc.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

11 games

 

[mattola]

I'm going to choose the Torres hit tonight

- repeat offender
- left feet
- puck gone by one second
- head shot

all playoffs please 10 games regular season.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I'm going to choose the Torres hit tonight

- repeat offender
- left feet
- puck gone by one second
- head shot

all playoffs please 10 games regular season.

I don't like saying all playoffs+, just since the number of games then is so open ended. Phoenix could, in theory, play 25 more PO games, so that would produce a max suspension of 35.

But then, if Phoenix goes out in 5, one could argue it's too little.

 

[Dacks]

I'm going to choose the Torres hit tonight

- repeat offender
- left feet
- puck gone by one second
- head shot

all playoffs please 10 games regular season.

That hit.. man... brutal. I'd say playoffs plus a few regular season games as well.

Always liked Hossa, but his career looks in jeapordy right now. Maybe his health too.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Torres would get 50 from me. I m sorry but he has had a shit ton of warnings and a history. There comes a point......

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

FWIW, keep in mind that Torres wasn't suspended for the Seabrook hit, so that wouldn't factor to his repeat offender status.

So this would be number 3, I think, not 4.

 

[Dacks]

Torres would get 50 from me. I m sorry but he has had a shit ton of warnings and a history. There comes a point......

I'd be up for 50, if his previous hits had been 10 and 20 and he still hadn't learned.

 

[Darkstone42]

I'm going to present a general idea for how to handle NHL discipline. If you want to see how an offense would be dealt with under my system, present it to me.

For all Rule 48 hits and offenses not involving a hockey play (i.e. going after a guy away from the puck or in a scrum):

All listed suspensions are indisputable minima. More games can be added for more egregious actions. Fines are fixed.
-1st offense: 5 game suspension without pay, plus a $10,000 fine.
-2nd offense: 20 game suspension without pay, plus a $50,000 fine.
-3rd offense: 82 game suspension without pay, plus a $500,000 fine.
-4th offense: 164 game suspension without pay, plus a $2 million fine.
-5th offense: Lifetime ban, $5 million fine.

The team will be fined twice the amount the player is fined, plus a fine of a $1 million annual contract prorated for the length of the suspension. Coaches will also be fined $50,000 for any such incident.

For Rule 48 infractions deemed to be strictly intentional, double the penalty. Same for non-hockey-play infractions involving an attack from behind.

For boarding, charging which does not involve contact to the head, and knee-on-knee hits:

-1st offense: 2 game suspension without pay, plus a $2500 fine.
-2nd offense: 10 game suspension without pay, plus a $10,000 fine.
-3rd offense: 25 game suspension without pay, plus a $50,000 fine.
-4th offense: 50 game suspension without pay, plus a $100,000 fine.
-5th offense: 82 game suspension without pay, plus a $500,000 fine.

This time, the team is fined twice the amount the player is fined, but no fine proportional to suspension length. All suspension lengths are minimum, fines are fixed. Coaches will be fined $10,000 for all incidents.

Under these rules, "accidental" incidents will be punished at these levels. Intentional ones should be scaled up accordingly.

Playoff considerations:
Suspensions simply carry into the playoffs, but since players don't get paid in the playoffs, a fine will be assessed to make up the money they would have lost had they been regular season games. Same for infractions committed in the playoffs.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

I would also apply all fines to the salary cap for the two season after the incident.

 

[Dacks]

I'm going to present a general idea for how to handle NHL discipline. If you want to see how an offense would be dealt with under my system, present it to me.

For all Rule 48 hits and offenses not involving a hockey play (i.e. going after a guy away from the puck or in a scrum):

All listed suspensions are indisputable minima. More games can be added for more egregious actions. Fines are fixed.
-1st offense: 5 game suspension without pay, plus a $10,000 fine.
-2nd offense: 20 game suspension without pay, plus a $50,000 fine.
-3rd offense: 82 game suspension without pay, plus a $500,000 fine.
-4th offense: 164 game suspension without pay, plus a $2 million fine.
-5th offense: Lifetime ban, $5 million fine.

The team will be fined twice the amount the player is fined, plus a fine of a $1 million annual contract prorated for the length of the suspension. Coaches will also be fined $50,000 for any such incident.

For Rule 48 infractions deemed to be strictly intentional, double the penalty. Same for non-hockey-play infractions involving an attack from behind.

For boarding, charging which does not involve contact to the head, and knee-on-knee hits:

-1st offense: 2 game suspension without pay, plus a $2500 fine.
-2nd offense: 10 game suspension without pay, plus a $10,000 fine.
-3rd offense: 25 game suspension without pay, plus a $50,000 fine.
-4th offense: 50 game suspension without pay, plus a $100,000 fine.
-5th offense: 82 game suspension without pay, plus a $500,000 fine.

This time, the team is fined twice the amount the player is fined, but no fine proportional to suspension length. All suspension lengths are minimum, fines are fixed. Coaches will be fined $10,000 for all incidents.

Under these rules, "accidental" incidents will be punished at these levels. Intentional ones should be scaled up accordingly.

I like the idea, but without the huge monetary fines. If they're already suspended without pay, they won't even be able to pay those fines, and the union would never agree to it anyway.

But fine the organization, for sure.

 

[Darkstone42]

I like the idea, but without the huge monetary fines. If they're already suspended without pay, they won't even be able to pay those fines, and the union would never agree to it anyway.

But fine the organization, for sure.

Obviously the union would be an issue.

Team and coach fines would stand if the player fines couldn't. A maximum allowed fine would, however, be assessed in addition to each suspension.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Obviously the union would be an issue.

Team and coach fines would stand if the player fines couldn't. A maximum allowed fine would, however, be assessed in addition to each suspension.

U will never get the nhlpa to agree to have ANYONE in their membership lose a portion of their salary plus pay a fine on top of that... Just look at bertuzzi Moore ... The nhlpa went to bat for bertuzzi

And ownership won't agree to have their assets, the players , miss playing time and cost them potential revenue

So we're just banging our heads against the wall

But if miracles do happen and the system changes it can't just be about suspending players x amount of games and or x amount of dollars

The team of the suspended player should also lose that roster spot for the duration of the suspension ... Ie they dress 1 less player for games during the suspension ... This way even the lesser suspensions have some teeth

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

I'm going to choose the Torres hit tonight

- repeat offender
- left feet
- puck gone by one second
- head shot

all playoffs please 10 games regular season.

I would give Torres 4 games.

I expect Shanahan to give him NOTHING since he didn't give Neal anything for leaving his feet on the hit he delivered on Couturier.

 

[Darkstone42]

U will never get the nhlpa to agree to have ANYONE in their membership lose a portion of their salary plus pay a fine on top of that... Just look at bertuzzi Moore ... The nhlpa went to bat for bertuzzi

And ownership won't agree to have their assets, the players , miss playing time and cost them potential revenue

So we're just banging our heads against the wall

But if miracles do happen and the system changes it can't just be about suspending players x amount of games and or x amount of dollars

The team of the suspended player should also lose that roster spot for the duration of the suspension ... Ie they dress 1 less player for games during the suspension ... This way even the lesser suspensions have some teeth

I have an out for teams.

For a player on a second offense or higher, regardless of the team he was with on previous offenses, he can be cut without penalty. He loses his buyout option. He just doesn't have a job. The team can do this whenever they want, and the player has to serve any remaining suspension time at the start of his next contract.

Why will this be effective? Players will find it harder to get and keep work if they're dirty in this scenario.

The NHLPA will fight it, but I say argue that you're actually helping them by removing potential risks to the other members.

 

[naes666]

I would give Torres 4 games.

I expect Shanahan to give him NOTHING since he didn't give Neal anything for leaving his feet on the hit he delivered on Couturier.

im pretty sure i saw something on the postgame tonight that said Neal was suspended? maybe for a different hit? i dunno

 

[Vadered]

I'm going to present a general idea for how to handle NHL discipline. If you want to see how an offense would be dealt with under my system, present it to me.

For all Rule 48 hits and offenses not involving a hockey play (i.e. going after a guy away from the puck or in a scrum):

All listed suspensions are indisputable minima. More games can be added for more egregious actions. Fines are fixed.
-1st offense: 5 game suspension without pay, plus a $10,000 fine.
-2nd offense: 20 game suspension without pay, plus a $50,000 fine.
-3rd offense: 82 game suspension without pay, plus a $500,000 fine.
-4th offense: 164 game suspension without pay, plus a $2 million fine.
-5th offense: Lifetime ban, $5 million fine.

The team will be fined twice the amount the player is fined, plus a fine of a $1 million annual contract prorated for the length of the suspension. Coaches will also be fined $50,000 for any such incident.

For Rule 48 infractions deemed to be strictly intentional, double the penalty. Same for non-hockey-play infractions involving an attack from behind.

For boarding, charging which does not involve contact to the head, and knee-on-knee hits:

-1st offense: 2 game suspension without pay, plus a $2500 fine.
-2nd offense: 10 game suspension without pay, plus a $10,000 fine.
-3rd offense: 25 game suspension without pay, plus a $50,000 fine.
-4th offense: 50 game suspension without pay, plus a $100,000 fine.
-5th offense: 82 game suspension without pay, plus a $500,000 fine.

This time, the team is fined twice the amount the player is fined, but no fine proportional to suspension length. All suspension lengths are minimum, fines are fixed. Coaches will be fined $10,000 for all incidents.

Under these rules, "accidental" incidents will be punished at these levels. Intentional ones should be scaled up accordingly.

Playoff considerations:
Suspensions simply carry into the playoffs, but since players don't get paid in the playoffs, a fine will be assessed to make up the money they would have lost had they been regular season games. Same for infractions committed in the playoffs.

A few things: First, what does the team get fined if the player gets his 5th rule 48 infraction? A million shaved off their cap space forever? Second, if this system were implemented, we'd need to come up with a better definition for charging. Hell, we need to do that anyway, but right now the definition would make it really awkward.