How to upgrade this team (but it ain't gonna happen)

[sychmd]

assuming we have cutch and marte, walker and alvarez(will play a better 3B now that he knows he belongs and can relax) as good offensive and defensive players.

we really need a tabata/presley/snider to emerge as our RF. ideally, tabata since we owe hime money, he is the youngest, and he has the best defensive ability. he seemed to come on for post allstar 284 ave and 376 OBP granted limited sample size.

then we have jones at first - good bat and passable fielder - with sanchez showing some life last year as platoon and bench help (how is sanchez defensively).

barmes - good D, passable O from the 8 slot and was 257 ave and 322 OBP.

work a trade for a promising catcher to platoon with McK.

spend, actually spend for a real pitcher, not just a 6M prayer or reclamation project. be willing to spend 10-12 M for someone at the top of the rotation and push the 6 AAA/cole pitchers to be produce. why do all the other organizations have 22,23 yo prodigies on the mound and our guys are 25/26 and still not sure what we have. do we have any player development staff or are they all on a 25 yr sabbatical.
who was the last pitcher that had #1 or 2 stuff for at least a 5 yr stretch that came up in our system.

 

[thecrow124]

Ummm wherever start, no we do not have much of a player development system. IMO it is horrible, at best and insulting at worst. As for why we have 24-25 yr olds but still don't really know what we have is because that is the one intelligent thing this group has done. You can control the few prospects that do make it through your system until they are exiting their prime playing years.
That being said, at some point you have to actually play to try to win. So once we reach that point we may see younger players working their way into the majors earlier.

 

[sychmd]

but why do we never get a precocious achiever who is worthy of MLB at age 22, that is a pitcher, when there are a number of them each year and atlanta has them regularly.

our 26 yo are still bench/utility pitchers, not dominating players that instill excitement when there names are mentioned or when their day in the rotation comes.

 

[thecrow124]

Because our player development sucks. Players enter our minor league system and regress instead of improve.

As far as the pitchers go, Taillon needed some work, but he did not need to drop 2 of the pitches he threw for the better part of 2 seasons just to work on fastball command. Fastball command should have been a primary focus, but not something that hindered his development. He was on a level with Dylan Bundy coming out of HS, but now is seen more as a #2 type pitcher by some talent evaluators. That is not good.

Shoot I lost focus, that discussion is for a different thread.

 

[thedddd]

You answer your own question, if Walker is the same at second as he is at third how does his value decrease by moving? He is still in the lineup batting 6th, which is also the wrong spot for him, but that is for another discussion. I don't care where he plays, we will get the same offensive production from him. It is just backwards thinking IMO to believe that he would have a different value just because he plays a different position. Dollarwise in arbitration maybe his value would go down due to the lack of power numbers from a historically power position, but how does that hurt us? Him playing third instead of Pedro helps the team, and that is the only thing I am concerned with.

Maybe Pedro can't play first, but I fully believe he would thrive at the position. Heck Albert Pujols played a passable first base for a few years. Pedro is more mobile and has faster reflexes than Pujols. Worst case scenario is he is no better than Jones, but THAT I find hard to believe.

As for Mercer playing second, he plays a pretty good SS, why on earth would he not play a good second? All the questions you bring up about him are certainly very valid, but there were even more questions about Wlaker playing second base when he came up, and you are now arguing that he should not be moved. To be fair, Mrecer has had better minor league numbers progressing through the system than Walker did, so I just deduce that he will at the very least be able to be passable offensively.

I absolutely understand your concernes with us not scoring enough runs to win, but in all honesty, this is the team we are going to have going into next season, so no matter where they play, the amount of runs we score will be the same. If we can put a defense on the field that doesn't give away roughly 30 runs over the course of a season, and could quite possibly save 30 runs over the course of the season, why on earth would you not do it?

Trust me I understand where you are coming from but his value would be lower at 3B. Yeah I get what you say his abilities at either position are the same and hit bat is the same. But if you move him to 3B (unless they get a better 2B via FA or Trade) you will take a better hitter than Mercer, Holt or whoever they have now out of the lineup.

Meaning if Walker goes to 3B, Alvarez to 1B (who will play there one day) but next year is not good especially if you put a average to below average 3B there like Walker. That will in turn push either Jones, Sanchez, Marte, Snyder or Tabata out of the lineup to use Mercer. If Mercer showed better hitting in the minors then I would be for the move.

Also take into consideration if Walker is at 3B, Alvarez has to play 1B and for a player who never played an infield position professionally that gets that much action it will directly decrease the value of the other infielders.

Only if there was a way to get Alvarez in the OF.

 

[thedddd]

Because our player development sucks. Players enter our minor league system and regress instead of improve.

As far as the pitchers go, Taillon needed some work, but he did not need to drop 2 of the pitches he threw for the better part of 2 seasons just to work on fastball command. Fastball command should have been a primary focus, but not something that hindered his development. He was on a level with Dylan Bundy coming out of HS, but now is seen more as a #2 type pitcher by some talent evaluators. That is not good.

Shoot I lost focus, that discussion is for a different thread.

That is the main reason I don't like replacing any player on the major league roster right now with Minor leaguers in this system. No position player makes me want to forget about some of the mediocre at best players they have on the major league roster right now.

 

[Illinest]

I really really pray that we come up with a better solution than to make half of our lineup learn new positions at the same time.

 

[thecrow124]

I really really pray that we come up with a better solution than to make half of our lineup learn new positions at the same time.

The only ones learning new positions would be Clutch and Pedro and they both would be moving to easier defensive positions. But if you can think of a way to improve the team the way it is currently constructed please feel free to share.

 

[Illinest]

I already said my piece. The team as currently constructed does not have enough talent. I'm not going to try rearranging the pieces of a losing team. But as to your idea - i think it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter if you put mcc in left and marte in center or vice versa - it wont make them any faster. (It's not like there's an invisible fence around mccs area.) Walker hasnt played 3b in almost 3 years, alvarez has never played first. Mercer hasnt shown that he can hit well enough to replace any of the people you're talking about replacing. Maybe your idea tweaks the defense into the positive enough that it doesnt hurt that youre playing two bad hitters and mckenry who i expect to regress pretty badly. Youll still have an incomplete and understaffed rotation. Youll still have a weak lineup.

This is the end of the excuses. Either neil tries to make us competitive now or else its never going to happen. Theres no excuses any more. New sources of revenue are being introduced. Attendance was way up and the team seems poised for a breakthrough. Theres no excuse. If it doesnt happen now then it wont ever happen. Then you can get used to the idea that your best hope is for a freak show kind of performance every decade or so.

 

[thecrow124]

Illenest I agree with your entire post. My whole point to this post was attempting to put a team on the field that could be improved while staying with basically the same team that won 79 games last year. If you want to talk about adding to payroll(which I don't expect to happen) then I would agree that there are a bunch of other variables that could be factored in. I just think any added payroll, f there is to be any, would be in the area of pitching. They are not going to explore a catcher with Sanchez in AAA. They are't going to explore SS with Barmes under contract. So basically offensively they will not be adding anything. They are't going to score any more runs, so why not exploring the possibility of saving a few runs with some defensive rearranging. Regardless of what they do, this team will be lucky to win 75 games next year, so why not get the inevitable position shifts out of the way.

 

[thedddd]

I get where both of you are coming from. The sad state of this team is the fact without adding real value outside the organization this team will be more of the same if not regress some.

If Jones/Whoever play First that gives this team one legit OF with a bunch of maybes/what ifs.

The rotation outside of Burnett and Rodriquez there is no guarantee of what you will get. If Karstens comes back that will help, but Morton who knows what will happen after the surgery and McDonald regressed the second half to the point is he guaranteed a spot in the rotation?

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