Hendrickson, Higgins, and Chase

[Cincyfan78]

Facts. But, considering the position, talent, contract and age of Simmons that is for sure worth thinking about if it was on the table. These pundits love click bait and I am not quite dumb enough to think this is anything but. However, a trade for a piece for a piece that strengthens a position of weakness...ehhh...interesting thoughts.

Concerns I would have:

Simmons will be 28 this year. Hendrickson 30. So, you're really not shaving off a ton of years on the player. You're just adding another guy under contract for roughly the same age-frame.

Simmons career high in sacs is 8.5. He's collected more than 5.5 just twice (8.5, 7.5). Hendrickson was coming off a 14.5 sack season when coming over from NO.

I mean, if you are talking about putting this guy on the other side of Hendrickson - maybe? But his tackle totals don't really align with a strong-side DE. He looks like (Stat-wise) more of a rush end/weakside DE like Trey. I don't necessarily agree that you can just put guys where-ever on the field because they all play specific roles. If he's been more of a weakside guy - then I wouldn't just think adding him to the strong side opposite of Trey would work like some may think - and I don't think I would agree that he would be a replacement for Trey, either.

I'm not sure I really see the overall benefit where the Bengals would get equal value in return for Higgins, personally. I'm not against tagging and trading - but I'm not sure Simmons is the guy I would use that chip for. Max Crosby, on the other hand...I'd consider, but that's not even in the realm of possible.

 

[cincygrad]

Watching last night's game reminds me why I'd rather trade Trey than pay him. I don't think your D is going to be very effective with one great edge and nothing else on the line. Good quarterbacks feel edge rushers and step up and around them - The place they struggle is when pressure comes from the middle. This is definitely true of Burrow - He has a much more difficult time with elite tackles than edges. Look at Philly's dominant D - They didn't have a dominant edge rusher, but their d-line has so much talent (particularly on the interior) that it overwhelms teams. I'd love to see us use the money and draft capital from Trey to add pieces on the interior d-line. I wouldn't be against adding a veteran edge (maybe Chase Young?) but I don't think it makes sense to pay Trey and then hope what we got will be enough.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Concerns I would have:

Simmons will be 28 this year. Hendrickson 30. So, you're really not shaving off a ton of years on the player. You're just adding another guy under contract for roughly the same age-frame.

Simmons career high in sacs is 8.5. He's collected more than 5.5 just twice (8.5, 7.5). Hendrickson was coming off a 14.5 sack season when coming over from NO.

I mean, if you are talking about putting this guy on the other side of Hendrickson - maybe? But his tackle totals don't really align with a strong-side DE. He looks like (Stat-wise) more of a rush end/weakside DE like Trey. I don't necessarily agree that you can just put guys where-ever on the field because they all play specific roles. If he's been more of a weakside guy - then I wouldn't just think adding him to the strong side opposite of Trey would work like some may think - and I don't think I would agree that he would be a replacement for Trey, either.

I'm not sure I really see the overall benefit where the Bengals would get equal value in return for Higgins, personally. I'm not against tagging and trading - but I'm not sure Simmons is the guy I would use that chip for. Max Crosby, on the other hand...I'd consider, but that's not even in the realm of possible.

Simmons is a DT, not a DE. You still need the DE to pair with Trey. Simmons is a run stuffer who can penetrate and get pressure on the QB up the middle. Simmons is the DL on TENN, same as Trey is our DL guy on our team. Different position, different skill set, but complimentary. Put him and Jenkins together up the middle and draft Mykal Williams to rotate with Myles Murphy on the outside, while Hendrickson plays hell on the other side.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Watching last night's game reminds me why I'd rather trade Trey than pay him. I don't think your D is going to be very effective with one great edge and nothing else on the line. Good quarterbacks feel edge rushers and step up and around them - The place they struggle is when pressure comes from the middle. This is definitely true of Burrow - He has a much more difficult time with elite tackles than edges. Look at Philly's dominant D - They didn't have a dominant edge rusher, but their d-line has so much talent (particularly on the interior) that it overwhelms teams. I'd love to see us use the money and draft capital from Trey to add pieces on the interior d-line. I wouldn't be against adding a veteran edge (maybe Chase Young?) but I don't think it makes sense to pay Trey and then hope what we got will be enough.

You are not incorrect here either. Trade him to Washington for the package I saw someone else speculating for Myles Garrett. Pick #29, this years 4th round pick, next years 2nd round pick.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Simmons is a DT, not a DE. You still need the DE to pair with Trey. Simmons is a run stuffer who can penetrate and get pressure on the QB up the middle. Simmons is the DL on TENN, same as Trey is our DL guy on our team. Different position, different skill set, but complimentary. Put him and Jenkins together up the middle and draft Mykal Williams to rotate with Myles Murphy on the outside, while Hendrickson plays hell on the other side.

My bad - for some reason, I was thinking he was a DT.

I'm on board.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Watching last night's game reminds me why I'd rather trade Trey than pay him. I don't think your D is going to be very effective with one great edge and nothing else on the line. Good quarterbacks feel edge rushers and step up and around them - The place they struggle is when pressure comes from the middle. This is definitely true of Burrow - He has a much more difficult time with elite tackles than edges. Look at Philly's dominant D - They didn't have a dominant edge rusher, but their d-line has so much talent (particularly on the interior) that it overwhelms teams. I'd love to see us use the money and draft capital from Trey to add pieces on the interior d-line. I wouldn't be against adding a veteran edge (maybe Chase Young?) but I don't think it makes sense to pay Trey and then hope what we got will be enough.

I'll disagree - if only to state this: They don't need to move on from Trey - they need to BUILD more around Trey. Now, obviously - he's 30, so I don't mean build long-term. What I mean is - you don't just need a pure edge guy like Trey, but you need more across the line in general. Sure, maybe you're thinking that trading Trey frees up cap - but you're going to spend it to replace his production, and there's no guarantee on bringing guys in you don't know a ton about. Trey is a proven commodity - and I think that is worth more.

I also don't trust this organization to fill the need via the draft, nor do I think it's wise to rely on rookies to provide this.

The Bengals have more than enough cap to get things done. Goodberry has said that the Bengals have enough to complete Chase, Higgins, and Trey and have roughly $40M left to spend on F/A.

Find the/a top tier IOL, and find a top tier DT or DE to pair with Trey. That's more than enough room, and leaves enough to ensure you get your draft class signed.

 

[Cincyfan78]

My bad - for some reason, I was thinking he was a DT.

I'm on board.

I mean DE...man! LOL

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I mean DE...man! LOL

All good. I knew what you meant.

 

[cincygrad]

I'll disagree - if only to state this: They don't need to move on from Trey - they need to BUILD more around Trey. Now, obviously - he's 30, so I don't mean build long-term. What I mean is - you don't just need a pure edge guy like Trey, but you need more across the line in general. Sure, maybe you're thinking that trading Trey frees up cap - but you're going to spend it to replace his production, and there's no guarantee on bringing guys in you don't know a ton about. Trey is a proven commodity - and I think that is worth more.

I also don't trust this organization to fill the need via the draft, nor do I think it's wise to rely on rookies to provide this.

The Bengals have more than enough cap to get things done. Goodberry has said that the Bengals have enough to complete Chase, Higgins, and Trey and have roughly $40M left to spend on F/A.

Find the/a top tier IOL, and find a top tier DT or DE to pair with Trey. That's more than enough room, and leaves enough to ensure you get your draft class signed.

I agree that it is possible. But this is the Bengals. I don't believe they will bring that much cash to the table in one year. If they are serious about re-signing Tee, I don't think they will do much more in FA than add mid-level value free agents. If they do sign Trey, Tee, and Chase, I'm guessing they'll fill out the rest of the roster with draft picks and bargain basement pieces. Again, I'm not saying there isn't another way - I just don't see the Bengals taking it.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I agree that it is possible. But this is the Bengals. I don't believe they will bring that much cash to the table in one year. If they are serious about re-signing Tee, I don't think they will do much more in FA than add mid-level value free agents. If they do sign Trey, Tee, and Chase, I'm guessing they'll fill out the rest of the roster with draft picks and bargain basement pieces. Again, I'm not saying there isn't another way - I just don't see the Bengals taking it.

Of course - that's fair, because that's been their MO since forever. They'll pay everyone and then cry poor for the rest of the F/A.

 

[Cincyfan78]

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[cincygrad]

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I feel a little bad that we all forget some of his big moments for the team. But, geez.... Anyone that watched more than a few minutes of our D last year can't really be sad about this. I get the PFF numbers are more in his favor than most people would guess, but he looked slow and disinterested for much of the year. The tackling has been an issue for the last couple years - Too busy going for the strip and never gets the guy to the ground.

I'm also guessing that the club has no interest in bringing Hill back - He and Pratt are close.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I feel a little bad that we all forget some of his big moments for the team. But, geez.... Anyone that watched more than a few minutes of our D last year can't really be sad about this. I get the PFF numbers are more in his favor than most people would guess, but he looked slow and disinterested for much of the year. The tackling has been an issue for the last couple years - Too busy going for the strip and never gets the guy to the ground.

I'm also guessing that the club has no interest in bringing Hill back - He and Pratt are close.

To my untrained eyes, he seemed like a guy always a step slow in coverage, and often looked like he picked the wrong slot/gap to cover in the run game. Had a ton of tackles, but the vast majority of them were 6-7-8 yards downfield. LB, like CB, is a young mans' position. LB play in general needs to get faster, quicker, and more able to be athletic.

I think we may see quite a bit of change on the defense, if I had to guess. They need a lot. Hubbard is old, and injured, and his play has dropped a lot. Hill is also up there. Rankins. Pratt is going to be 29. So is Logan Wilson - who I like, but again - this LB core needs to get faster, quicker, and more athletic. But if I'm keeping 1 of the 2, it's Wilson.

I think the biggest 2 questions are: Does Hubbard get cut or renegotiated (kind of like Mixon) and does Stone get cut. I was already of mind to cut move on from Pratt and Rankins (and really Hubbard, too). Bring back Ossai who flashed a bit once he got more PT, Murphy, Trey - and draft another young guy in rounds 1 or 2 for the edge.

In fact, I've done some mocks (just because I enjoy playing around with stuff) where I've gone DT, DE, LB (or S) in rounds 1-2-3. Of course, that also means in F/A Higgins is back, and you get at least 1 IOL....so, always with a grain of salt - but point being - this defense needs a lot.

 

[BigKen]

Another country heard from........

The Bengals have three guys that they need to wrap up. With a new cap of $277.5M, they have $43.5M to spend.

If they Franchise Higgins, that will eat up $23.5M and you have to know that Higgins won't play for $15M less than he would get if he was a free agent. My guess is that his agent will tell him to sit out.

Chase?? You're looking at the first $40M Wide Receiver contract.

Hendrickson?? $27M if you're lucky.

Mike Brown is one of the cheapest owners in the NFL and there's no way he's going to pay out $90M or 33% of the cap to three players, no matter how much Burrows begs him. Think Brown will give Burrow a 5 year $225M contract?


Remember Carson Palmer??

I root for the Bengals while my Patriots are swimming in the toilet and I sincerely feel bad for you fans.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Another country heard from........

The Bengals have three guys that they need to wrap up. With a new cap of $277.5M, they have $43.5M to spend.

If they Franchise Higgins, that will eat up $23.5M and you have to know that Higgins won't play for $15M less than he would get if he was a free agent. My guess is that his agent will tell him to sit out.

Chase?? You're looking at the first $40M Wide Receiver contract.

Hendrickson?? $27M if you're lucky.

Mike Brown is one of the cheapest owners in the NFL and there's no way he's going to pay out $90M or 33% of the cap to three players, no matter how much Burrows begs him. Think Brown will give Burrow a 5 year $225M contract?


Remember Carson Palmer??

I root for the Bengals while my Patriots are swimming in the toilet and I sincerely feel bad for you fans.

I think Higgins gets done - or gets traded. He won't play 1 snap under the tag.

Hendrickson - we'll see. The MO for the Bengals has been to not extend guys into their mid-30's seasons. Trey is 30. That being said, in 3 of the last 4 years, he's had double digit sacks, with back to back 17.5 sack seasons. He's been trending up, not down. Even if he dips into the 7-8 realm, he's still going to be a factor that teams scheme against on offense - and with any addition to the line, it will have a positive effect. I think if they can up his salary this year, and add 2 years - that gets it done. That takes him into his 33/34 age season.

Burrow is under contract for 5 more years. Palmer got his way out, but I don't see Palmer in the same boat as Burrow. Palmer's biggest issue wasn't that they didn't want to pay him, or other players - Palmer was deeply against how Marvin ran the team, that is a tidbit that doesn't get mentioned enough. Palmer had enough of the coach, and it was either him or Lewis. Brown loved Marvin, and so...Palmer got his wish. Burrow may have some issues, but in the end, I think only signing Chase here matters. Keep Chase, and add another WR if they let Higgins go - and the offense, and Burrow, will be fine.

I've said all along - they need to sign no less than 2 of the 3. Chase/Higgins, or Chase/Trey keeps the good will rolling, even if barely. Only get 1 done, and while it will be Chase to keep Burrow happy - if the team fails to do well, the ownership will own this. If they sign all 3 - and things don't work out - the Bengals will have their best excuse ever to not do contracts like this again. If it does work out, they look like geniuses for getting it done (even though it is common place in the NFL). In other words, it really is a win-win for the Bengals to get all 3 done, and nearly a lose-lose if they don't.

 

[BigKen]

I think Higgins gets done - or gets traded. He won't play 1 snap under the tag.

Hendrickson - we'll see. The MO for the Bengals has been to not extend guys into their mid-30's seasons. Trey is 30. That being said, in 3 of the last 4 years, he's had double digit sacks, with back to back 17.5 sack seasons. He's been trending up, not down. Even if he dips into the 7-8 realm, he's still going to be a factor that teams scheme against on offense - and with any addition to the line, it will have a positive effect. I think if they can up his salary this year, and add 2 years - that gets it done. That takes him into his 33/34 age season.

The Patriots would be a perfect trade partner for the Bengals to take both oif these guys off their hands and be able to pay them both.

There might be some complaining about Trey's age, but once he started he'd be a Boston Hero.

Higgins would make more money doing local ads in Boston than his entire contract would pay him and he'd be adored.

It might cost the Patriots #37 and #70 in the draft but it would be like gold for the Bengals.

 

[Cincyfan78]

The Patriots would be a perfect trade partner for the Bengals to take both oif these guys off their hands and be able to pay them both.

There might be some complaining about Trey's age, but once he started he'd be a Boston Hero.

Higgins would make more money doing local ads in Boston than his entire contract would pay him and he'd be adored.

It might cost the Patriots #37 and #70 in the draft but it would be like gold for the Bengals.

If you were going to trade for both - it would take a lot more than those 2 picks, IMO. While I'll agree Higgins is a nice low-end #1, he's the #1 WR on the market, and by some the #1 FA available in the NFL. The market is going to overpay. Now, that doesn't mean NE has to overpay, but someone is likely going to give up a 2nd and a future 3rd or 4th if he's getting traded.

Trey has 35 sacks in the past 2 seasons - on a team with zero rush from any other position. He's going to get at least a 2nd rounder, and a 3rd/4th either this year or next as well. If Garrett gets traded, that would likely set the market since they are very similar.

But, the Bengals have plenty of room to sign both, and Chase, and still have a nice cushion left over for F/A. Higgins also fired his past agent, and brought in a new one because he's willing to take a bit less to stay. Not a lot less, because - again, the market is going to overpay him...but, he can still make a really freaking good living, and keep Burrow as his QB, AND have Chase helping him to take off the pressure on the other side. I mean - if you can make 25-27M a year and have that, that doesn't suck. Sure, maybe you can get $30M or more...but you're not getting Burrow/Chase...and from all communications - that is what he wants...he wants to stay. He just wants some fair negotiations - which I think is warranted.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

If you were going to trade for both - it would take a lot more than those 2 picks, IMO. While I'll agree Higgins is a nice low-end #1, he's the #1 WR on the market, and by some the #1 FA available in the NFL. The market is going to overpay. Now, that doesn't mean NE has to overpay, but someone is likely going to give up a 2nd and a future 3rd or 4th if he's getting traded.

Trey has 35 sacks in the past 2 seasons - on a team with zero rush from any other position. He's going to get at least a 2nd rounder, and a 3rd/4th either this year or next as well. If Garrett gets traded, that would likely set the market since they are very similar.

But, the Bengals have plenty of room to sign both, and Chase, and still have a nice cushion left over for F/A. Higgins also fired his past agent, and brought in a new one because he's willing to take a bit less to stay. Not a lot less, because - again, the market is going to overpay him...but, he can still make a really freaking good living, and keep Burrow as his QB, AND have Chase helping him to take off the pressure on the other side. I mean - if you can make 25-27M a year and have that, that doesn't suck. Sure, maybe you can get $30M or more...but you're not getting Burrow/Chase...and from all communications - that is what he wants...he wants to stay. He just wants some fair negotiations - which I think is warranted.

They are saying that Garrett's market might be fair for what some analyst suggest Minnesota/Detroit trades might look like.

1st this year, 1st next year, 3rd this year, 3rd next year....with minnesota/detroit getting back a 2nd next year and a 5th this year.

 

[Cincyfan78]

They are saying that Garrett's market might be fair for what some analyst suggest Minnesota/Detroit trades might look like.

1st this year, 1st next year, 3rd this year, 3rd next year....with minnesota/detroit getting back a 2nd next year and a 5th this year.

I think Trey falls into that range. I think people will overpay a bit more for Garrett because of the name and Myles had a better start to his career as a 1st round pick.

If you look at the past 5 seasons...Trey has 70.5 sacks. Myles has 72. Myles does have the edge on tackles. Trey won't pull what Myles will, but I can see where it would be a 1st this year, maybe a 3rd this year, and a 3rd next year with the Bengals sending back a pick, but likely a bit lower - or they just do a 1st this year, 3rd next year and call it.

 

[Cincyfan78]

A really good, and objective, look at Higgins and F/A with regards to where he really lands in terms of value/contract/expectations...

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