GDT 7 /14 GIANTS vs STROS

[gp956]

schadenfreude.........

one more strike
by asongscout on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT reply

WTF?
SB Nation Los Angeles
@JulioNievas
by Julio Nievas on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT reply

what th efuck was that
@maddzgoesrawr
by Maddz on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT reply

Oh my fucking God, what a cluster fuck of a play
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
by Phil Gurnee on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT reply

wtf!!!!
by jrock247 on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT via Android app reply

What just happened?
In the time it took you to read this, Dee Gordon grounded out to first twice.
by Taylor Maricle on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT reply

WHAT
SB Nation Los Angeles
@JulioNievas
by Julio Nievas on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT reply

What the hell...just happened? Crap.
"The city of Los Angeles has been waiting for this for 45 years. There are about 20 million dreams coming true tonight.'' - Dustin Brown 6/11/2012
by douchiedude on Jul 14, 2012 9:35 PM PDT reply

HUH!!!!!?????????????
"How about this f@$%in team right here"
by Pure Azure on Jul 14, 2012 9:36 PM PDT reply

They just stole home.
@maddzgoesrawr
by Maddz on Jul 14, 2012 9:36 PM PDT reply

OMFG
0oo0oo0000oo0o00ooo0oo0o0ooo0o0o0. . .. . . . . .
by Ghost_of_K3vo on Jul 14, 2012 9:36 PM PDT reply

fucking fuck
by jrock247 on Jul 14, 2012 9:36 PM PDT via Android app reply

 

[gp956]

LOL

I pulled a Kenley at the same time Kenley pulled a Kenley tonight. After that 2-2 pitch, I turned around, but I was reaching for the last chocolate covered caramel macadamia nut cluster in the box. I turn around, Cabera is halfway to home plate. I throw the nut cluster at the TV as a reaction, but the throw goes high, hitting the top of the ceiling. Dodgers lose and my last nut cluster falls behind the TV and is covered is dust. Fuck.
by UCLADodger32 on Jul 14, 2012 10:33 PM PDT reply 9 recs

 

[Mays-Fan]

From the Disney Dogie board:

Idiot of the year Award

I am sorry, but I have not seen a baseball team lose like that since little league....Really.

Turns his back, the runner steals home and then he doesn't even cover home plate as the runner from second scores the go ahead run. Idiot of the year award. I know I am not the only Dodger fan that feels that way.

 

[MarcoPolo]

What do you expect from a back-up catcher? Hector is essentially the 14th best offensive catcher in the NL. If he can become reacquainted with the walk in the second half, he'll move way up on the catcher rankings.

What I wanted (*before* the season started) was for Sanchez to learn to be a starting catcher in the minors. I'm sure I posted enough about "improving his hitting" and and "working on the defense" by playing every day in the minors enough at the time (not to mention "not having proved himself above A ball" and "not wasting major league service time"). I figured that with all the backup catchers we had, we could afford to let Sanchez grow in the minors. How much does a backup catcher contribute?

BUT once Sanchez got traded (sure didn't see that coming - I *still* can't believe we got Kontos for him) that was it - I sure didn't want Whiteside as the backup catcher. And as I said in a previous post, Sanchez has been surprisingly clutch, winning (at least) 3 games with a walk-off so far this season. But he has performed about like I thought (both with the bat and the glove) - except for his "clutch-ness", which has been huge. Those 3 games won could be the difference at the end of the season.

 

[tzill]

Bullshit. Grant's stawhatting, but he's not a stawhat. And you of all people should recognize pure attention whoring pantsshittery on a night Hector had four hits and the Giants moved into first place. Really, a new low for Grant. It really is.

I don't agree; I think the best thing for Chez' career is to have him catch every day, or nearly every day. If Belt were still bombing, then having Posey play 1B 80% of the time would work too. As it is, he needs the reps.

I do realize that it might not be the best thing for the 2012 Giants to have Hector in Fresno, but I think it's a valid argument. Hector is fundamentally unsound behind the plate.

 

[gp956]

What I wanted (*before* the season started) was for Sanchez to learn to be a starting catcher in the minors. I'm sure I posted enough about "improving his hitting" and and "working on the defense" by playing every day in the minors enough at the time (not to mention "not having proved himself above A ball" and "not wasting major league service time"). I figured that with all the backup catchers we had, we could afford to let Sanchez grow in the minors. How much does a backup catcher contribute?

BUT once Sanchez got traded (sure didn't see that coming - I *still* can't believe we got Kontos for him) that was it - I sure didn't want Whiteside as the backup catcher. And as I said in a previous post, Sanchez has been surprisingly clutch, winning (at least) 3 games with a walk-off so far this season. But he has performed about like I thought (both with the bat and the glove) - except for his "clutch-ness", which has been huge. Those 3 games won could be the difference at the end of the season.

About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team. As if we were dolts or fan-wanks who were fooled by his A+ and spring stats. So, no, you did not post "enough" about anything specific with Sanchez, since you even admitted you had only seen him play a few times. You really have a tendency towards a revisionist version of history about what you were stating/thinking at the time. You need to check yourself on that, it's a common trap we humans make.

 

[gp956]

I don't agree; I think the best thing for Chez' career is to have him catch every day, or nearly every day. If Belt were still bombing, then having Posey play 1B 80% of the time would work too. As it is, he needs the reps.

I do realize that it might not be the best thing for the 2012 Giants to have Hector in Fresno, but I think it's a valid argument. Hector is fundamentally unsound behind the plate.

Sorry, but I think you're full of shit here. You have no basis to think that working with the best coaches and the best major league pitchers in the Giants org is not better for Chez than getting reps at AAA. Petitio Principii. I also challenge you to produce data that indicates Chez is currently "fundamentally unsound" behind the plate.

 

[MarcoPolo]

About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team. As if we were dolts or fan-wanks who were fooled by his A+ and spring stats. So, no, you did not post "enough" about anything specific with Sanchez, since you even admitted you had only seen him play a few times. You really have a tendency towards a revisionist version of history about what you were stating/thinking at the time. You need to check yourself on that, it's a common trap we humans make.

I believe I said a bunch more than that, but I post on 2-3 other boards, so maybe I didn't do so here. Let me go looking ...

 

[tzill]

Sorry, but I think you're full of shit here. You have no basis to think that working with the best coaches and the best major league pitchers in the Giants org is not better for Chez than getting reps at AAA. Petitio Principii. I also challenge you to produce data that indicates Chez is currently "fundamentally unsound" behind the plate.

I'd have to go back and watch every single pitch and chart stabs vs. solid catches. Then I'd have to know the relative frequency of same for a league average catcher. I'm not willing to invest the time or effort.

It's just my opinion, based on watching him receive, that he's not sound. You make a fair point about working with the best coaches. I wonder how much of a difference there is between the ML coaches and the AAA version compared to the utility of catching 5-6 games a week vs. one or two.

Hell, I could be wrong, but I think playing every day is more valuable.

 

[gp956]

I'd have to go back and watch every single pitch and chart stabs vs. solid catches. Then I'd have to know the relative frequency of same for a league average catcher. I'm not willing to invest the time or effort.

It's just my opinion, based on watching him receive, that he's not sound. You make a fair point about working with the best coaches. I wonder how much of a difference there is between the ML coaches and the AAA version compared to the utility of catching 5-6 games a week vs. one or two.

Hell, I could be wrong, but I think playing every day is more valuable.

Neither is Grant willing to invest that much time, plus he doesn't have the ability. To me these opinions have more to do with wanting more playing time for Belt, than anything to do with chez3. I really have a problem with opinions born from agenda, and then supported by all manner of logical fallacy. Grant can get away with it because he is surrounded by sycophants, but that shit is not going to play here.

Nevertheless, to address the issue of whether Chez should be playing at AAA/AA: getting reps is no guarantee of improvement when you're not challenged. The knock on Chez3's was that he was relying on natural talent and not really working. Contrast that with what the Giants brass has said about Hector as the season has progressed. They've universally praised his improvement. From my perspective, unless you've got something a lot more than a casual interest in the details of the pitch/catcher interaction, you've got to defer to the Giants staff, and they have given no indication, either overtly or through back channels, that they think chez3 is "fundamentally unsound" behind the plate. Really, to even suggest that is beyond the pale, and a bit of a hubristic moment, imo.

 

[MarcoPolo]

OK, here's my first post that I have managed to find on the subject of Sanchez, 03-12-2012, 12:48 PM :

Observations from yesterday:
All in all, my pre-ST opinions still hold: Blanco makes it as the 25th guy; Belt will end up in Fresno to start the season; both cajuns make the team as backup MI; Hensley will be the 12th arm; Stewy will be the backup at C.

However, I see Belt and Chez3 being called up by June to stay. It will be interesting to see what the AAA rotation looks like besides Ortiz and Kamp.

1) I've always been a proponent of not rushing guys too quickly, so I would hate to have Sanchez start the season in SF. Sure, Sanchez had a break-out year in San Jose last year but was then was promoted to Fresno, where he completely stalled. He's had less than 170 plate appearances above A ball. He needs to go back to Fresno to improve (show he can hit well in the higher levels, AND improve his "calling the game"). Sanchez can hit the ball a mile when thrown a fastball down the middle. What he needs to prove that he can hit when facing better pitching. He has just a third of a year in Fresno (where he didn't do well). I'd like to see him develop a little bit, see decent curveballs and changeups and sliders in AAA. Because if he doesn't, when he sees GOOD to GREAT curveballs and changeups and sliders in the majors, he's going to flail. There's no reason to rush him. He's just 22.

2) If Blanco makes the squad, then who doesn't? My pick would be Burriss. With Pill and Theriot and Fontenot on the team, I think Burriss is last man standing. I'm pretty sure he has no options left, so there's a risk he'd be picked up on waivers (but I'm OK with that).

 

[MarcoPolo]

{{ I posted the above and this one on the wrong thread }}

The second one I managed to find was on 03-21-2012, 05:19 PM

I'm amazed at how many people think Hector Sanchez should start the season with the team. He had *one* great year in lowly *a-ball*, and he sucked once promoted to Fresno. He really needs to show he can hit decent pitching before making the team. (And no, I don't think random ST scrubs qualifies as "decent hitting".)

Then closely followed by :
03-22-2012, 09:28 AM

I'd rather see Hector playing every day (and learning) rather than sitting on the bench in SF 6 days of the week. BUT if the team is planning on having Posey sitting out every other game the first couple of weeks of the season, why not? But I also fear that Sanchez would put up a line similar to the one he had in Fresno last year :
.261 /.315/.340 /.655.

Pretty "whiteside-ish".

and
03-22-2012, 01:51 PM

160 AB? With a sample size that small, I'd say his Fresno line is close to meaningless.

His spring stats are an even smaller sample size (and he's hitting against a lot of minor league pitching).

He's young, very young, and he hasn't hit well above A-ball. There's no problem with him having another short stint in the majors if he's going to play several days a week, but I'd rather look towards the future and have him learn in the minors the stuff that he needs to be a success in the majors. AA is generally the real "make it or break it" level in the minors, and he skipped that level. It's not surprising that he didn't hit well going from San Jose to Fresno - the pitching is a heck of a lot better in AAA. He also needs to improve his defense, and Steve Decker is just the guy to make sure he does learn it. There aren't that many guys that rocket from 'A'-ball to AAA and then the majors and are a success, and those that do so are generally highly touted top-10 draft picks who were expected to have that success. We've been spoiled by Timmy and Buster, who did exactly that (but they were expected to basically do that when they were drafted). And they both killed in AAA, for the short time that they were there, unlike Hector.

I'm not sure that he'll hit well in the majors, as he hasn't seen much in the way of good breaking pitches (or was totally fooled by the ones he saw in Fresno last year). Again, I'm thinking more about his future career than the extra 5 hits he might get over Stewart in the 3 weeks he'll be in the majors. I certainly don't want to see him in the majors all year, if it means he won't improve defensively. I'd rather that he learn how to hit decent pitching when he is NOT racking up major league service time, and getting closer to arbitration and FA. I'd rather that he do that learning in the minors, so that he'll be a better player in the future and be a good player able to stay with the Giants longer. On other boards, this is when everybody would expect me to refer to Matt Williams. so I will . He was promoted way too early and his first 3 (partial) seasons in the majors were where he learned about curveballs and change-ups. His output those 3 years was far, far below what he put up the rest of his career, barely hitting .200 (and his first season, not even that). It's a shame he didn't learn that in the minors and not waste all that service time.

My last reason is something that comes up pretty much every year with Giants' prospects : the "jimmy jack" aspect. You hear the complaints about a guy getting called up, being sent down, called up again (and hardly playing), etc. That is exactly what I'd like to avoid with this kid; it could mess up his confidence. He needs to concentrate on improving, and the fastest and best way for that is to play every day. And I'd rather have a better player for late 2012 or 2013 instead of a mediocre one now.

I honestly don't think that he'll hit much better than the catcher he would replace, and for the little actual playing time that he would see he shouldn't make much of a difference, unless he actually hits like Buster. The backup catcher is not the guy that is going to make or break this team's chances to hit the post season. He's not even 2nd or 3rd or even 5th or 9th on things to worry about which could influence a post-season run.

And that was about all I could find. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that I posted on other threads about Sanchez than the ST thread, but I'm too lazy to go looking for more.

Well, when I said "about all I could find", I skip the ones where you are using big words (but no additional facts) to tell me I'm wrong, like "Your arguments have been a somewhat fallacious mix of inductive and deductive logic buoyed by confirmation bias" and "don't fool yourself into thinking that your "argument" reflects anything more than an error prone reasoning process trying to justify it's own internal logic as sound. The latter condition seems to be a feature of humans, i.e. we all do it." And of course my responses to them. I just included the ones where I said why I thought Sanchez should start the season in Fresno.

 

[MarcoPolo]

About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team. As if we were dolts or fan-wanks who were fooled by his A+ and spring stats. So, no, you did not post "enough" about anything specific with Sanchez, since you even admitted you had only seen him play a few times. You really have a tendency towards a revisionist version of history about what you were stating/thinking at the time. You need to check yourself on that, it's a common trap we humans make.

"About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team."

No, I didn't. See above posts.

"You really have a tendency towards a revisionist version of history about what you were stating/thinking at the time. You need to check yourself on that, it's a common trap we humans make"

Actually, it appears that YOU were the one with "a revisionist version of history about what {*I*} were stating/thinking at the time". Which is surprising, since YOU were so involved with dialoging with me about it at the time.

All the quotes I provided about Hector are from the Spring Training thread. My comments on Hector start around here :

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/san-francisco-giants/63465-spring-training-2012-a-15.html

 

[MarcoPolo]

What I wanted (*before* the season started) was for Sanchez to learn to be a starting catcher in the minors. I'm sure I posted enough about "improving his hitting" and and "working on the defense" by playing every day in the minors enough at the time (not to mention "not having proved himself above A ball" and "not wasting major league service time").

Well, I sure posted about "improving his hitting" and "working on the defense" and "not having proved himself above A ball" and "not wasting major league service time").

Edit/PS : Although I *did* think I posted about it more - I would have thought 10+ posts, I guess I'm mixing in posts from other boards. I posted about Sanchez a *lot* in March.

 

[gp956]

{{ I posted the above and this one on the wrong thread }}

The second one I managed to find was on 03-21-2012, 05:19 PM



Then closely followed by :
03-22-2012, 09:28 AM


and
03-22-2012, 01:51 PM


And that was about all I could find. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that I posted on other threads about Sanchez than the ST thread, but I'm too lazy to go looking for more.

Well, when I said "about all I could find", I skip the ones where you are using big words (but no additional facts) to tell me I'm wrong, like "Your arguments have been a somewhat fallacious mix of inductive and deductive logic buoyed by confirmation bias" and "don't fool yourself into thinking that your "argument" reflects anything more than an error prone reasoning process trying to justify it's own internal logic as sound. The latter condition seems to be a feature of humans, i.e. we all do it." And of course my responses to them. I just included the ones where I said why I thought Sanchez should start the season in Fresno.

What do you think your post(s) show? The fact that he's here, not failing, improving, being praised by the staff, and paired with timmy shows the Giants think he belongs up here. Who are you to question any of that? And what objective data are you developing and publishing to demonstrate that the Giants are wrong?

 

[MarcoPolo]

What do you think your post(s) show? The fact that he's here, not failing, improving, being praised by the staff, and paired with timmy shows the Giants think he belongs up here. Who are you to question any of that? And what objective data are you developing and publishing to demonstrate that the Giants are wrong?

My point in posting the above was that (IMO) you were rather rude and condescending, specifically "About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team. As if we were dolts or fan-wanks who were fooled by his A+ and spring stats. So, no, you did not post "enough" about anything specific with Sanchez, since you even admitted you had only seen him play a few times. You really have a tendency towards a revisionist version of history about what you were stating/thinking at the time. You need to check yourself on that, it's a common trap we humans make. "

What I meant to show was that your statement above was wrong, which I believe I did. When somebody tells me I'm wrong, that I am using "revisionist version of history" when that is not at all the case, I feel somewhat pissed off and insulted. I admit I took a little pleasure in turning your own words of "revisionist version of history" against you.

So, basically, I think that my post(s) show that your claim was completely wrong, that YOU were mis-remembering (what you were claiming was my error). And, frankly, I was rather pissed off about your claim. It had nothing to do with proving the Giants wrong at all.

 

[MarcoPolo]

To be (hopefully) blantantly clear, what I objected to were the comments : ""About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team." and "You really have a tendency towards a revisionist version of history about what you were stating/thinking at the time."

NOT that I was "right" or "wrong" about my opinion, but that at the time I said almost nothing about it (or little to support my opinion) and that I was misremembering. In a condescending tone (which you do so well).

 

[gp956]

"About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team."

No, I didn't. See above posts.

"You really have a tendency towards a revisionist version of history about what you were stating/thinking at the time. You need to check yourself on that, it's a common trap we humans make"

Actually, it appears that YOU were the one with "a revisionist version of history about what {*I*} were stating/thinking at the time". Which is surprising, since YOU were so involved with dialoging with me about it at the time.

All the quotes I provided about Hector are from the Spring Training thread. My comments on Hector start around here :

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/san-francisco-giants/63465-spring-training-2012-a-15.html

I've got to run here in a minute...... but, really, you have no details in your post, other than the incorrect point about chez3 only being able to hit fastballs down the middle.

The revisionist aspect comes from you stating something vague like, "he needs to improve his defense" without specifying things like, ball blocking, pitch framing, game calling, holding runners on. And now, pointing to some of those specific areas of defense in reaction to one play in one game and saying "see? I told you all this in spring". That's where humans fail. Thinking we had the details right, when all we had was a vague opinion about something. You'll see me pointing this out all the time in myself - so don't take it personally.

Then of course, there is the larger point of whether he's better served in Fresno or the majors. Nothing you've presented here shows he, or the Giants, would have been better off had he been assigned to Fresno.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The revisionist aspect comes from you stating something vague like, "he needs to improve his defense" without specifying things like, ball blocking, pitch framing, game calling, holding runners on. And now, pointing to some of those specific areas of defense in reaction to one play in one game and saying "see? I told you all this in spring".

I don't remember saying "See, Sanchez fucked up in defense tonight" anywhere in this thread. Could you point it out?

Then of course, there is the larger point of whether he's better served in Fresno or the majors. Nothing you've presented here shows he, or the Giants, would have been better off had he been assigned to Fresno.

As I stated above (my most recent post or two) whether the Giants were right or wrong, or I was right or wrong, wasn't the point of all of this. I never said that. OTHER posters piled on and argued whether it would be better if he were in Fresno or not, but not me. (As I pointed out in my most recent posts, all my quotes from ST was just to show that "all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team" and that I was mis-remembering.)

 

[MarcoPolo]

.. but, really, you have no details in your post, other than the incorrect point about chez3 only being able to hit fastballs down the middle.

I either missed this the first time I read it, or you added it in your edit.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "details".

But since what I was trying to refute was : "About all you really said in the spring was that you "amazed" anyone here thought Sanchez might break with the team." I believe that I showed that I said a lot more about Sanchez this past spring. Those were the "details" I was trying to provide.