GDT (6) - 10/22 Sharks at Bruins - 4:00PM

[Destroydacre]

Take the win for sure. Not the best game the Sharks have ever played, but tonight it was good enough.


Someone feel free to tell Marleau the season has started.

 

[Cbrower91]

Burns better get north of 70 pnts to make up for his shitastic defense, its inexcusible the shit he is doing on the ice

 

[Likewall32]

I still like whoever posted, throw him on forward for a few games. Ya never know. It worked out pretty good for Buff. Wasnt he originally a forward anyway?

 

[SJVP408]

Sharks were outplayed for the balance of the game but Niemi was able to be the equalizer which you need for the back to back of a road win. I can get used to the Couture scoring play. Clowe ties up the puck, Havlat comes in to fish it out and dish it out to an open Couture.

The top line should get going and once Mitchell comes back to play with Handzus, that makes 2/3rds of a decent third line.

I don't understand why Burns likes to go down on his knee to block a pass. He should take some notes out of Vlasic's school of stickwork and use his long stick and long reach to disrupt the opponent's stickhandling. One thing you can say about Burns' defense is he knows how to put an opponent down on his rear. He can be physical in tight spaces, but looks lost in open space. It might do him good to just simplify his game until he can tidy up some of his bad D habits.

Let's keep it going, Sharkies!

 

[Cbrower91]

I still like whoever posted, throw him on forward for a few games. Ya never know. It worked out pretty good for Buff. Wasnt he originally a forward anyway?

He was drafted as a LW i think and Jaquce Demers moved him to defense when he was in Minnie.

 

[sjrules99]

Sharks were outplayed for the balance of the game but Niemi was able to be the equalizer which you need for the back to back of a road win. I can get used to the Couture scoring play. Clowe ties up the puck, Havlat comes in to fish it out and dish it out to an open Couture.

The top line should get going and once Mitchell comes back to play with Handzus, that makes 2/3rds of a decent third line.

I don't understand why Burns likes to go down on his knee to block a pass. He should take some notes out of Vlasic's school of stickwork and use his long stick and long reach to disrupt the opponent's stickhandling. One thing you can say about Burns' defense is he knows how to put an opponent down on his rear. He can be physical in tight spaces, but looks lost in open space. It might do him good to just simplify his game until he can tidy up some of his bad D habits.

Let's keep it going, Sharkies!

Mitchell is barely an NHL player IMO. I dont understand what he brings to the table. He is fast, yes, and he plays a high temp game, but he has zero shot, zero hands, is knocked off the puck like a feather, is a poor PKer and on and on. What is the love obsession for the this guy? People think he is good on the PK, but he stinks! when you really look at his numbers in detail it is obvious. I honestly think he is a huge part of why the PK has been so horrid. I predict that if he goes down for a long stretch, the PK will suddenly improve.

Mitchell's injury is the best thing to happen to the sharks this year. Not only will they get the LTIR relief from his salary, but they can put someone in there who will be equal or better. Even Wingels is arguably better. How about that Connolly chap who is off to such a strong start in worcester? I just cant wait until mitchell is off the team, and I would bet that if dougie does not resign him, then some team will give him 1 year at 1M and that will be the end of his career.

Just my two cents.

p.s.: He is fast though

 

[sjrules99]

p.p.s: I'd love to see the other fast player on the team start performing. I know he was sick, but he looks horrible. He is streaky and this was the same thing he did last year, so it would sure be nice to get a semblance of consistency from the guy.

Last year pre-allstar marleau stats: gp: 50, G:18, A:18, +/-: -19. He was one of the main reasons for the terribad start last year and he's doing it again. Of course, he was absolutely AWESOME and on fire in the 2nd half. Hopefully its just 6 games and nothing more. Sharks need him...

 

[SJVP408]

Mitchell is barely an NHL player IMO. I dont understand what he brings to the table. He is fast, yes, and he plays a high temp game, but he has zero shot, zero hands, is knocked off the puck like a feather, is a poor PKer and on and on. What is the love obsession for the this guy? People think he is good on the PK, but he stinks! when you really look at his numbers in detail it is obvious. I honestly think he is a huge part of why the PK has been so horrid. I predict that if he goes down for a long stretch, the PK will suddenly improve.

Mitchell's injury is the best thing to happen to the sharks this year. Not only will they get the LTIR relief from his salary, but they can put someone in there who will be equal or better. Even Wingels is arguably better. How about that Connolly chap who is off to such a strong start in worcester? I just cant wait until mitchell is off the team, and I would bet that if dougie does not resign him, then some team will give him 1 year at 1M and that will be the end of his career.

Just my two cents.

p.s.: He is fast though

That's exactly what give him value. His speed and tenacity on the forecheck He causes turnovers and this year he has played a big part on Handzus' wing gaining entry into the offensive zone. I agree his hands are bad and his offensive vision is nothing to write home about. But when compared to McGinn and Wingels, he's the best of the three. If he should come back, try to watch him and how he uses his speed to gain the zone. If it's a dump in, watch how well he limits the time on the defender that is retrieving the puck.

You won't hear an argument from me when you say he has poor hands, but what he does well, he does really well. His PK skills are average imo.

 

[Cbrower91]

p.p.s: I'd love to see the other fast player on the team start performing. I know he was sick, but he looks horrible. He is streaky and this was the same thing he did last year, so it would sure be nice to get a semblance of consistency from the guy.

Last year pre-allstar marleau stats: gp: 50, G:18, A:18, +/-: -19. He was one of the main reasons for the terribad start last year and he's doing it again. Of course, he was absolutely AWESOME and on fire in the 2nd half. Hopefully its just 6 games and nothing more. Sharks need him...

One of the main reasons? I'd say you have to take a look at your boy slowvelski long before marleau. Not only was slovelski horrible for the better half for the first part of the season he looked horribly out of shape, and thats inexcusibl... Combine that with bad goaltending and not much scoring is the reason for the slow.start last year not just marleau

 

[Cbrower91]

Mitchell is barely an NHL player IMO. I dont understand what he brings to the table. He is fast, yes, and he plays a high temp game, but he has zero shot, zero hands, is knocked off the puck like a feather, is a poor PKer and on and on. What is the love obsession for the this guy? People think he is good on the PK, but he stinks! when you really look at his numbers in detail it is obvious. I honestly think he is a huge part of why the PK has been so horrid. I predict that if he goes down for a long stretch, the PK will suddenly improve.

Mitchell's injury is the best thing to happen to the sharks this year. Not only will they get the LTIR relief from his salary, but they can put someone in there who will be equal or better. Even Wingels is arguably better. How about that Connolly chap who is off to such a strong start in worcester? I just cant wait until mitchell is off the team, and I would bet that if dougie does not resign him, then some team will give him 1 year at 1M and that will be the end of his career.

Just my two cents.

p.s.: He is fast though

Mitchell isnt on the LTIR, and you really under estimate his value as a player and the chemistry he seems to be developing with Handzus, but then agian you dont appreciate Handzus either lol. Those guys are being paid to score a ton of points they are paid to do all the little things that have big pay offs in the game. It's just the finer points of the game i dont think you appreciate or maybe dont understand.

 

[sjrules99]

Mitchell isnt on the LTIR, and you really under estimate his value as a player and the chemistry he seems to be developing with Handzus, but then agian you dont appreciate Handzus either lol. Those guys are being paid to score a ton of points they are paid to do all the little things that have big pay offs in the game. It's just the finer points of the game i dont think you appreciate or maybe dont understand.

Yeah, I noticed that mitchell wasnt seriously hurt, so I guess its no biggy...

First, as for patty, I said "One of the main reasons"... He was not alone by any stretch and I didnt mean to imply he was. That said, it would be nice for him to start doing something good.

second, handzus has been a nice surprise so far. he has looked reasonable on the PK and has been a nice fill in on the PP as well. Right now, he seems to be earning his money, but at 2.5M, he needs to be pretty good.

As for mitchell, yes, he works hard, and yes he gets in on forechecks, but then he simply turns it back over or gets knocked off the puck. I dont think he does the little things well. he is piss poor at clears on the PK and doesnt get in shooting lanes either (he has 1 blocked shot thus far, and just 27 all of last year). That's hardly good for a PK specialist. Hell even ben eager had more blocks and pavs had nearly 3 times as many as the number 1 forward. If Mitchell was actually good at the PK, then fine, but he's not. He stinks in the FO circle (48.8% last year, worst among anyone with at least 50 draws). Maybe I'm off, but I fail to see what he does well exactly aside from being fast.

 

[Cbrower91]

Yeah, I noticed that mitchell wasnt seriously hurt, so I guess its no biggy...

First, as for patty, I said "One of the main reasons"... He was not alone by any stretch and I didnt mean to imply he was. That said, it would be nice for him to start doing something good.

second, handzus has been a nice surprise so far. he has looked reasonable on the PK and has been a nice fill in on the PP as well. Right now, he seems to be earning his money, but at 2.5M, he needs to be pretty good.

As for mitchell, yes, he works hard, and yes he gets in on forechecks, but then he simply turns it back over or gets knocked off the puck. I dont think he does the little things well. he is piss poor at clears on the PK and doesnt get in shooting lanes either (he has 1 blocked shot thus far, and just 27 all of last year). That's hardly good for a PK specialist. Hell even ben eager had more blocks and pavs had nearly 3 times as many as the number 1 forward. If Mitchell was actually good at the PK, then fine, but he's not. He stinks in the FO circle (48.8% last year, worst among anyone with at least 50 draws). Maybe I'm off, but I fail to see what he does well exactly aside from being fast.

Marleau was great in the first game after his flu bug not so much, that shit takes it out of you as a normal person. If you had any idea how much those guys skate when it comes to combined games and practices and how much fluid they lose during that time you'd understand why Marleau hasnt been as good as he was in the first game.

That being said he did get knocked off the first line for Ferrio so Tmac sees it too lol.

Mitchell is fine on clears but he tends to attack passing lanes and disrupt passes and skates the puck out of the zone as oppossed to just chipping it out.

 

[sjrules99]

Marleau was great in the first game after his flu bug not so much, that shit takes it out of you as a normal person. If you had any idea how much those guys skate when it comes to combined games and practices and how much fluid they lose during that time you'd understand why Marleau hasnt been as good as he was in the first game.

That being said he did get knocked off the first line for Ferrio so Tmac sees it too lol.

Mitchell is fine on clears but he tends to attack passing lanes and disrupt passes and skates the puck out of the zone as oppossed to just chipping it out.

definitely a fair thing regarding the marleau flu. That can definitely be devastating, but that was a while ago and he has yet to get it going. It's early, and I didn't mean to start a marleau bashing thread, so I'll leave it at that. I fully expect he will pick up his game shortly and the sharks absolutely do need him to be real good.

On a side note, is it me or has danny boyle suddenly forgot how to shoot? It seems like he is getting a ton of great prime looks and just firing into the goalie's chest logo each time. I feel like he could easily have 2 or 3 goals thus far. Hopefully, it's not a sign of anything.

 

[abaskin18]

Yeah, I noticed that mitchell wasnt seriously hurt, so I guess its no biggy...

First, as for patty, I said "One of the main reasons"... He was not alone by any stretch and I didnt mean to imply he was. That said, it would be nice for him to start doing something good.

second, handzus has been a nice surprise so far. he has looked reasonable on the PK and has been a nice fill in on the PP as well. Right now, he seems to be earning his money, but at 2.5M, he needs to be pretty good.

As for mitchell, yes, he works hard, and yes he gets in on forechecks, but then he simply turns it back over or gets knocked off the puck. I dont think he does the little things well. he is piss poor at clears on the PK and doesnt get in shooting lanes either (he has 1 blocked shot thus far, and just 27 all of last year). That's hardly good for a PK specialist. Hell even ben eager had more blocks and pavs had nearly 3 times as many as the number 1 forward. If Mitchell was actually good at the PK, then fine, but he's not. He stinks in the FO circle (48.8% last year, worst among anyone with at least 50 draws). Maybe I'm off, but I fail to see what he does well exactly aside from being fast.

Shocker: There's no column for effective defensive play on the stat sheet. He's not all world at it, he's not even THAT good at it but he's certainly not a borderline NHLer. IMO he's worth his deal, but I know I'm in the minority here on that.

Similarly unquantifiable play is what makes a player like Marleau worth his salary to a contender and Heatley's harder to justify to a contender. Maybe you only see these things when they're missing (like you've accurately noted about Heatley recently) and not when they're present (like you've noted with Mitchell and Marleau)?

 

[Destroydacre]

definitely a fair thing regarding the marleau flu. That can definitely be devastating, but that was a while ago and he has yet to get it going. It's early, and I didn't mean to start a marleau bashing thread, so I'll leave it at that. I fully expect he will pick up his game shortly and the sharks absolutely do need him to be real good.

On a side note, is it me or has danny boyle suddenly forgot how to shoot? It seems like he is getting a ton of great prime looks and just firing into the goalie's chest logo each time. I feel like he could easily have 2 or 3 goals thus far. Hopefully, it's not a sign of anything.

I've noticed that as well. For most defenseman I wouldn't worry about it, but Boyle is one of the best at picking the corners and not shooting the puck into the goalie. I'm not going to worry about it this early and hopefully we'll see Boyle placing his shots better later on in the season.

 

[Cbrower91]

definitely a fair thing regarding the marleau flu. That can definitely be devastating, but that was a while ago and he has yet to get it going. It's early, and I didn't mean to start a marleau bashing thread, so I'll leave it at that. I fully expect he will pick up his game shortly and the sharks absolutely do need him to be real good.

On a side note, is it me or has danny boyle suddenly forgot how to shoot? It seems like he is getting a ton of great prime looks and just firing into the goalie's chest logo each time. I feel like he could easily have 2 or 3 goals thus far. Hopefully, it's not a sign of anything.

I don't think he's forgotten how to shoot i think its Dan Boyle being Dan Boyle the guy is ultra competative and i think he is trying to hard to pick up the slack for the "Help" he is getting from Burns lol.

I think once the bumbling Burns gets sorta out things will be fine for Boyle but until then its going to be a tough go. Plus once he gets his first one i think he will settle down as well.

 

[sjrules99]

Shocker: There's no column for effective defensive play on the stat sheet. He's not all world at it, he's not even THAT good at it but he's certainly not a borderline NHLer. IMO he's worth his deal, but I know I'm in the minority here on that.

Similarly unquantifiable play is what makes a player like Marleau worth his salary to a contender and Heatley's harder to justify to a contender. Maybe you only see these things when they're missing (like you've accurately noted about Heatley recently) and not when they're present (like you've noted with Mitchell and Marleau)?

marleau has actually improved his defensive game tremendously in recent years and was an excellent PKer last year. He and pavs usually were the first PK unit and they did a whale of a job.

mitchell, is nothing special defensively. He's not that horrid and doesnt usually end up fully responsible for goals, but he is far from good. His PK number are horrific when taking into account everything (GA/60 mins in relation to where he starts each PK shift. Blocked shots, etc.) Mitchell somehow got a rep as a respectable penalty killer but look at the sharks PK results, and he is a big part of it.

Offensively, he has 11 goals and 38 points in his last 146 games dating back to his rookie year. on an 82 games pace, that's roughly 6 goals, 15 assists for 21 points. Those are 4th line numbers at best and 3rd line players need to produce more than that.

I dont buy the 'intangibles' argument for this guy the way you obviously can for a guy like scotty nichol. He brought physicality, truly excellent PK skills, great FO man, and all that heart. mitchell brings none of those things and gets paid double.

Thankfully, his salary isnt that high and he isnt that important of a player, so it's no biggy. Besides, his injury is probably a big part of it to, and that's of course no fault of his own.

 

[abaskin18]

marleau has actually improved his defensive game tremendously in recent years and was an excellent PKer last year. He and pavs usually were the first PK unit and they did a whale of a job.

mitchell, is nothing special defensively. He's not that horrid and doesnt usually end up fully responsible for goals, but he is far from good. His PK number are horrific when taking into account everything (GA/60 mins in relation to where he starts each PK shift. Blocked shots, etc.) Mitchell somehow got a rep as a respectable penalty killer but look at the sharks PK results, and he is a big part of it.

Offensively, he has 11 goals and 38 points in his last 146 games dating back to his rookie year. on an 82 games pace, that's roughly 6 goals, 15 assists for 21 points. Those are 4th line numbers at best and 3rd line players need to produce more than that.

I dont buy the 'intangibles' argument for this guy the way you obviously can for a guy like scotty nichol. He brought physicality, truly excellent PK skills, great FO man, and all that heart. mitchell brings none of those things and gets paid double.

Thankfully, his salary isnt that high and he isnt that important of a player, so it's no biggy. Besides, his injury is probably a big part of it to, and that's of course no fault of his own.

And yet some think he is borderline NHLer...or at least some say that. Are they just blowing smoke? Borderline 3rd liner seems more like what you're trying to say.

But please, tell me again about the stats. They're winning me over.

 

[sjrules99]

And yet some think he is borderline NHLer...or at least some say that. Are they just blowing smoke? Borderline 3rd liner seems more like what you're trying to say.

But please, tell me again about the stats. They're winning me over.

bask... he's a fine 4th liner playing 8 mins a game. hell, the bar is pretty low for most 4th liners around the league. However, the guy is being paid over 1.7M with a cap hit nearly 1.4M. That's not 4th line type of salary. If he was paid 600 or 700k, then I'd be fine with him. the addition 700k freed up by that is a big big difference. (think about the quality of a player making, 2.3M vs. 3 or 3.3 vs. 4). it is quite significant. At 4M, pavs is a great deal, but pushing 5M it's a tougher call. Boyle is good for 6.7, but what about roughly 7.5?

I know that no one on this board likes any form of statistics or any other evidence to back up opinions. People just say "he's good on the pk" even if the statistics don't back that up. There is a reason that moneyball is a popular movie and why billy beane is such a famous guy and well reknowned GM who changed the analysis of his sport. He looked at money, a set of uncommon stats, and made genius moves based on that. Not hunches, not feelings. Just scientific analysis of undervalued stats that truly show a player's effectiveness.

The same can be done in hockey. Just as goals, assists, and +/- dont tell the whole story, there are other metrics (goals against per 60 PK mins, FO%, opponent matchups, zone starting numbers, and so much more).These metrics arent perfect, but they give a much better whole view of a player's ability and contributions. Nothing can quantify a locker room presence, of course, but somehow I dont see that applying when it comes to a guy like mitchell.

 

[abaskin18]

bask... he's a fine 4th liner playing 8 mins a game. hell, the bar is pretty low for most 4th liners around the league. However, the guy is being paid over 1.7M with a cap hit nearly 1.4M. That's not 4th line type of salary. If he was paid 600 or 700k, then I'd be fine with him. the addition 700k freed up by that is a big big difference. (think about the quality of a player making, 2.3M vs. 3 or 3.3 vs. 4). it is quite significant. At 4M, pavs is a great deal, but pushing 5M it's a tougher call. Boyle is good for 6.7, but what about roughly 7.5?

I know that no one on this board likes any form of statistics or any other evidence to back up opinions. People just say "he's good on the pk" even if the statistics don't back that up. There is a reason that moneyball is a popular movie and why billy beane is such a famous guy and well reknowned GM who changed the analysis of his sport. He looked at money, a set of uncommon stats, and made genius moves based on that. Not hunches, not feelings. Just scientific analysis of undervalued stats that truly show a player's effectiveness.

The same can be done in hockey. Just as goals, assists, and +/- dont tell the whole story, there are other metrics (goals against per 60 PK mins, FO%, opponent matchups, zone starting numbers, and so much more).These metrics arent perfect, but they give a much better whole view of a player's ability and contributions. Nothing can quantify a locker room presence, of course, but somehow I dont see that applying when it comes to a guy like mitchell.

I hear ya, man. But when it comes to two way play, to me, it seems more like you're finding stats to fit an argument. Not making an argument based on evidence, stats or otherwise. Well rounded hockey can be shown statistically about as well as Offensive Linemen play in the NFL. Apples to oranges I know, but it's still fruit. I would quantify the stats you were using her as under-used(appropriately) not undervalued. I'm cool with stats, but you have to use them appropriately. Maybe say, "If blocked shots and face off percentage are any indicator, perhaps Mitchell isn't as good a PK'er as people think" instead of "Mitchell is god awful defensively, just look at these numbers that no one uses to demonstrate anything."

You asked what it is that your missing. It's kind of like fog. I can see it, I know it's there, but I can't grab it and show it to you the way you'd like. It's no mystery why many value what Mitchell brings as a PK'er...they see what he brings as valuable, based on what they see, not what they read. In the end it's the same difference of opinion for you and I.

I only bring up Marleau because I feel like your critique of Mitchell is somewhat analogous to your critique (or is it vandetta? JK...) of Patty. When he's not scoring you can't see the good two way play and say it would be nice if "did something good." When, in fact, he does many things well whether he's scoring or not, unlike a Heatley. And that's the most baffling thing to me: you see it when it's missing from a player like Heatley, but can't see it when it's present in certain players. But when Pavs disappears he does so many other things well in your view (And I agree as his PK and face offs have really blossomed). It's hard to not sense pretty strong biases towards players you like/dislike.

When I read your posts, educated as they are, I just usually see the same thing: Exaggerated conclusion first, analysis second. But I am glad you at least backed off saying Mitchell doesn't belong in the league, at least it looked like you did.