Finally..... some good sense emerges about pitch counts

[magnumo]

I don't remember whether it was this board or another where we discussed the current practice of "babying" pitchers' arms. Some folks believe that strict adherance to pitch counts and inning counts is a must..... while others believe that such restrictions can be overprotective and prevent pitchers from developing the arm strength they need. (While I believe there's a place for pitch counts, I'm in the latter camp.)

The article linked below is one of the best I've read in recent times. There's much of interest throughout the article..... but you'll find several references in the body which suggest that the Pirates have been among the worst offenders at what I call "babying" pitchers..... not only in terms of strict pitch counts, but also in not allowing long toss. This may be the reason that we've seen so many Pirate pitching prospects LOSE velocity.

In my opinion, regardless of which side of the argument you're on, the article is a good read and provides food for thought on the subject.

Baseball pitch counts and shifting wisdom on the best training for arms - ESPN

 

[Darkstone42]

Alderson's success with the more demanding regimen, right in the Pirates' system, will hopefully change their philosophy.

 

[sychmd]

AMEN! this is what i have been preaching in other threads on this site. great article. to bad they dont have much medical information as this is where the real witness to the validity of "use it or lose it" for maximizing the strength and durability of the upper torso and throwing arm, as well as the legs.
google tom house(the one who caught aaron's 715). he is very into kiniesiology and biomechanics as it relates to pitching and arm strength,
my background, i pitched into college(D1), am a biomedical engineer, and an MD. so this has been a pet interest/peeve of mine since HS, but also since a good friend in college (all-american hon mention as a frosh) lost his career i believe because of this exact mismanagement.

i am infuriated in reading the article to see the fact that the pirates are one of the major violators of proper conditioning. i have always disliked their need to have someone command the fastball before they can move on. this is ridiculous also for a whole other set of reasons. it is a miracle that we can ever get someone through our system with velocity, stamina, and a powerful mental makeup(which is what you lose in the command the fastball first mentality), and a good repertoire of pitches.

i have an ulcer from writing this, but it was therapeutic as well!

 

[sychmd]

another tidbit.
when i didnt pitch, i was our catcher. pretty good but could never hit offspeed stuff.
but the real benefit was learning to call a game objectively. as a pitcher, you arent objective when you are 'calling a game' from the mound.
the other major benefit of catching, and this was huge:
throwing everyday, and hard.
if you really want to strengthen your arm, dont long toss. instead, throw from your knees to the bases, and especially second. long throwing will build up your whole body to throw, but throwing from literally your knees, daily, for a bunch of reps, 50-80, will really strengthen your throwing shoulder and arm and torso. you will then be highly resistant to arm strain and shoulder injury. this is unchartered for most throwing regimens but is pure gold.

 

[thedddd]

sychmd, to go on your thought being left handed and when I grew up it was a novelty so I pitched a TON. Not only start but come in during games. But unlike you when I wasn't pitching and I didn't work out my arm so when I got to High School I couldn't pitch anymore, had no velocity and had to rely on Junk that wasn't there. I wonder if that could be said for a lot of lefties growing up in the 70's and 80's?

Looking back I wish I knew about this because coaching we do long toss as part of the kids practice and it has even helped me MANY years later.

 

[sychmd]

lefties were aways gold because of the novelty factor and that fastball that tailed away from righties. natural screwgie.
i hear you, they got a lot of work, but in those days, there were no pitch limits.
i threw 140 in several legion games (legion is 9 innings) that went into extra innings and topped out in 160's in one game.
after 130 in one game i caught the second game of the twinbill at hall of fame, cooperstown field, by the hall of fame. lost 12 pounds that day.
never really got tired or had arm trouble, but never threw much junk. would just lose a little command later as mental stamina wore down at times, but i was first team all state in jersey.
fastball, straightchange, cutter, splitfinger. so everything really had the same arm and elbow position and mechanics.

 

[thecrow124]

Alderson is not the only pitcher in the system on this throwing regimen, I saw video of him playing long toss this spring, his throwing partner was none other than Rudy Owens. It was pretty impressive actually. The best part was Owens was accurate at the 350 foot distance hitting Alderson without him even needing to move. Owens also looked like he was using his typical pitching motion and not even over exerting. I would also believe that those aren't the only 2 in the system using long toss, just the only 2 I know of. I would be surprised if Gerrit Cole isn't on a similar program, I wouldn't even venture a guess on Taillon though as I don't remember what kind of program he was following in HS, I do remember the pirates sending him a schedule for his training right after he signed, so he may be on the 120 program.

I would not be surprised to find out that Allie was long tossing in HS and just could not adjust to the 120 program to the point where he lost it mentally.

Thsi would also explain why EVERY projectable pitcher we draft NEVER adds velo. I am to the point where I don't even like hearing that term associated with Pirate pitching prospects, "projectable and should add velocity as he fills out" should be the new term for failed prospect in the Pirates system.

Sorry just venting, I also find it humorous that pitchers are on pitch counts, don't long toss in order to save their arms, but we have more TJ surgery now than in days past.

 

[element1286]

Interesting, never saw the reason why guys couldn't long toss. Long toss definitely helped my arm in high school after it was all but dead. I guess the argument is that it messes with the pitchers arm slot/mechanics, but I have never seen a good explanation as to why some teams don't like the long toss.

I don't have a problem with pitch counts, but I like them more in the sense of amount of 'High effort pitches' ie pitches thrown with men on base, and extended innings in which 25+ pitches are thrown. Although I still don't buy all guys can be Nolan Ryan and throw 245 pitches in a game, and be just fine in the long run.

Also, we are saying that the reason so many guys get hurt is because of the pitch count mechanism that has been in place for the past 20 years or so. But in the same breath, I find it interesting that pitching has been as good in the past 5 years or so, as it has been in a long, long time. And considering almost all the guys who are pitching now grew up on the pitch count rules, as they stand today, I can't honestly say what is being preached is completely worthless.

 

[magnumo]

Interesting, never saw the reason why guys couldn't long toss. Long toss definitely helped my arm in high school after it was all but dead. I guess the argument is that it messes with the pitchers arm slot/mechanics, but I have never seen a good explanation as to why some teams don't like the long toss.

My experience has some similarities to yours. The only time I ever hurt my arm was at age 12 in Little League. At season's end, most of the kids participated in an official but ill-advised contest to see who could throw a baseball the farthest on the fly (a form of "long toss" in itself, I suppose). Each player threw the ball three times and the average was recorded. My first throw was the longest of any kid in the contest..... but I hurt my arm with that throw, and my average came in second. I didn't throw at all until the following season..... but over the next couple of years, a form of what is now called "long toss" helped restore my arm strength.

The only explanation I've heard against long toss is the risk of "over-doing" it. I can see that..... at least for a kid who tries to throw a ball as far as he can.

I don't have a problem with pitch counts, but I like them more in the sense of amount of 'High effort pitches' ie pitches thrown with men on base, and extended innings in which 25+ pitches are thrown. Although I still don't buy all guys can be Nolan Ryan and throw 245 pitches in a game, and be just fine in the long run.

I don't have a problem with pitch counts PER SE, either. And I like your notion of "high effort pitches." My problem is that most major league teams seem to focus on 100 pitches as the number teams "try to build up to." I believe that 100 stops too short for building appropriate arm strength. I'd like to see teams build pitchers up to perhaps 130 to 150 pitches..... NOT necessarily expecting them to throw that many in each start, but rather building arm strength to the extent that a pitcher COULD throw that many pitches without significant injury risk.

Also, we are saying that the reason so many guys get hurt is because of the pitch count mechanism that has been in place for the past 20 years or so. But in the same breath, I find it interesting that pitching has been as good in the past 5 years or so, as it has been in a long, long time. And considering almost all the guys who are pitching now grew up on the pitch count rules, as they stand today, I can't honestly say what is being preached is completely worthless.

Yes, pitching has been good in recent years, but I believe there are a number of contributing factors (e.g., fewer hitters on PED's, more specialization, expecting starters to go only 5 - 7 innings and asking them to throw as hard as they can for as long as they can, etc.).

Another thought is that apparently high school coaches and college coaches frequently do NOT subscribe to pitch count limits, and it sounds like a lot of kid pitchers have bought into the long toss regimen. So..... I'm not sure that current pitchers necessarily "grew up on" the same kind of pitch count rules as they encounter when they turn professional. I'd LOVE to see more research on this, to clarify it one way or the other.

Finally, I agree with your closing statement. Pitch count rules are not completely worthless. On the other hand, my current belief is that many teams have applied them in a too strict and limited way.