All-Time Best Players vs. All-Time Second Best Players at their Position Teams

[Omar 382]

I'm going to make a team of the best players at their position (with one SP and one closer and a DH), and then a team of the second best players of all time. I am factoring in (at least a little) the amount of time spent at each position, thus A-Rod is hurt by splitting time between short and third, as is Berra with C and the outfield.

Best Team:
C- Johnny Bench
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rogers Hornsby
3B- Mike Schmidt
SS- Honus Wagner
LF- Barry Bonds
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Babe Ruth
DH- Frank Thomas
SP- Walter Johnson
Closer- Mariano Rivera

Second-Best Team
C- Mike Piazza
1B- Stan Musial
2B- Eddie Collins
3B- Alex Rodriguez
SS- Cal Ripken
LF- Ted Williams
CF- Ty Cobb
RF- Hank Aaron
DH- Edgar Martinez
SP- Roger Clemens
Closer- Billy Wagner

The best team has a WAR of 1277.1. The second best team has a WAR of 1158.8. That's a difference of 118.3 wins! I would have thought that the two teams would have been a lot closer. Of course, the players I picked were not the two best players by WAR at their positions, rather, they were players that I thought were best when I combined WAR, non-WAR stats, and intangibles like PEDs, era's, time missed due to military service, defense, etc. Still, I thought this was a pretty interesting comparison.

 

[Cedrique]

Yeah, the biggest thing with career WAR is the length of everyone's career is not the same. Some guys finish the "prime" of their career and then stay in the league at a lower level but still rack up a couple games in WAR for a few years as an above average player.

 

[Omar 382]

Yeah it's the classic Tommy John vs. Roy Halladay debate

 

[WestCoastPhan]

Billy Wagner is the 2nd best closer of all time!?? LOL!

 

[Omar 382]

Billy Wagner is the 2nd best closer of all time!?? LOL!

It's close, but I think he is

 

[northeastphillyguy]

It's close, but I think he is

Trevor Hoffman and Rollie Fingers come in mind for 2nd best closer. But Wagner is probably the best Left handed reliever.

 

[Omar 382]

Trevor Hoffman and Rollie Fingers come in mind for 2nd best closer. But Wagner is probably the best Left handed reliever.

Hoffman was helped immensely by pitching in SD. Fingers is close, but I'd still take Wagner

 

[WestCoastPhan]

Lee Smith, Dennis Eckersley, Goose Gosage, Bruce Sutter...to name a few more. Wagner is recent, so you likely watched him. He was the ultimate choke artist everywhere he went...including here in Philly.

 

[Omar 382]

No way to Smith or Sutter. The other two you could make a case for, but I'll still take Wagner

 

[WestCoastPhan]

I'd take Brad Lidge or Eric Gagne in their prime over Wagner. And how about that Tug McGraw? All better than Wagner.

 

[Omar 382]

LOL no

 

[Omar 382]

Wagner has the third best FIP among closers with a minimum of 400 IP, after Mo and Paps. If you want to take Paps over Wagner, be my guest.

 

[jvett77]

Both teams are awesome. As an addition to RHP Clemons, I'd choose lefty Warren Spahn. Each won over 350 games with an ERA close to 3.00. But Clemens was superior because he pitched long after the mound was lowered from 15 to 10 inches in 1968 to generate more hitting.

 

[WestCoastPhan]

Wagner has the third best FIP among closers with a minimum of 400 IP, after Mo and Paps. If you want to take Paps over Wagner, be my guest.

Oh I get it. You're talking stats and I'm talking what my eyes saw. I am old enough to have watched all of the above that I mentioned. In this case you should edit the name of this thread to:
All-Time Best Stats (Players) vs. All-Time Second Best Stats (Players) at their Position Teams

 

[Omar 382]

Oh I get it. You're talking stats and I'm talking what my eyes saw. I am old enough to have watched all of the above that I mentioned. In this case you should edit the name of this thread to:
All-Time Best Stats (Players) vs. All-Time Second Best Stats (Players) at their Position Teams

Yeah, I thought it was assumed we were including players we haven't seen, unless you want to leave Ruth, Musial, Aaron, Bench, Cobb, Mays, and Honus Wagner off the list

 

[WestCoastPhan]

Yeah, I thought it was assumed we were including players we haven't seen, unless you want to leave Ruth, Musial, Aaron, Bench, Cobb, Mays, and Honus Wagner off the list

Wagner was a fucking choke artist and, BTW, also a fucking cry baby! From what I saw, no way he makes any special player's list.

 

[Omar 382]

To each his own. If I was crafting a team (well he wouldn't be my closer because my best pitcher wouldn't be a closer) but I would take him right after Mo among relievers. You could make a case for Eck, but I still like Billy

 

[UK Cowboy]

I don't like Piazza, Musial or Wagner as 2nd team. Piazza would be around 5-6, Musial would be 3rd team OF, Wagner could be argued as best lefty, but I couldn't put him above Eck

 

[Omar 382]

I don't like Piazza, Musial or Wagner as 2nd team. Piazza would be around 5-6, Musial would be 3rd team OF, Wagner could be argued as best lefty, but I couldn't put him above Eck

1. Piazza sixth or seventh? He's within 5 wins of every player ahead of him in WAR (except Bench) and he played considerably less time. He's third in WAR7, behind Bench (who I had first) and Gary Carter. I guess if you trust defensive metrics A LOT (and I'm not sure that you should) you could put Carter and Fisk over him. And if you put a whole fucking lot of trust in defensive metrics then Carter would be above Piazza. Berra played the outfield a lot and Piazza was a better hitter anyway. And it's not like Piazza was a bum defensively. His fielding and positional adjustment is 20.7. I don't really like the stat, but his CERA was always good with the Dodgers. I know that the catching position is very important defensively, but I think Piazza's offensive dominance (which uses more lucid stats) makes him the best after Bench.
2. Musial played first base more than any other position in his career. He was hurt by not playing his whole career there though, and let's not forget his military service. I originally had Foxx above him, but Musial was better enough than Foxx for me to rank him higher than him even if he didn't play his whole career at that one position
3. Eck only played half his career as a closer, and when he did close he had a worse ERA and FIP than Wagner. I think Wagner is going to get a lot of heat when he's called one of the best closeres of all time because his career ended so recently. It's like in 1930 everyone called Ty Cobb the greatest player of all time, even though Ruth clearly was better. It's the same thing with Wagner. In 20 years, it will be common to hear Wagner's name included in the top 3 closeres of all time.

 

[UK Cowboy]

1. Piazza sixth or seventh? He's within 5 wins of every player ahead of him in WAR (except Bench) and he played considerably less time. He's third in WAR7, behind Bench (who I had first) and Gary Carter. I guess if you trust defensive metrics A LOT (and I'm not sure that you should) you could put Carter and Fisk over him. And if you put a whole fucking lot of trust in defensive metrics then Carter would be above Piazza. Berra played the outfield a lot and Piazza was a better hitter anyway. And it's not like Piazza was a bum defensively. His fielding and positional adjustment is 20.7. I don't really like the stat, but his CERA was always good with the Dodgers. I know that the catching position is very important defensively, but I think Piazza's offensive dominance (which uses more lucid stats) makes him the best after Bench.
2. Musial played first base more than any other position in his career. He was hurt by not playing his whole career there though, and let's not forget his military service. I originally had Foxx above him, but Musial was better enough than Foxx for me to rank him higher than him even if he didn't play his whole career at that one position
3. Eck only played half his career as a closer, and when he did close he had a worse ERA and FIP than Wagner. I think Wagner is going to get a lot of heat when he's called one of the best closeres of all time because his career ended so recently. It's like in 1930 everyone called Ty Cobb the greatest player of all time, even though Ruth clearly was better. It's the same thing with Wagner. In 20 years, it will be common to hear Wagner's name included in the top 3 closeres of all time.

Defense is at a premium for catchers, Piazza was below average defensively. He was a great stick, but at C, like SS, defense must be factored at least equally, if not more