Game Thread: 8/12 Sox @ Giants

[Stokes1931]

16-45 when scoring 2nd

2-13 after the ASB

3-5 in series opening games

 

[calsnowskier]

I am so glad the Giants made a trade to improve this team. They turned around their losing ways.


6 games back and falling. The Giants Brass made a mockery of this team with their lack of doing anything to help this team at all since the start of June. No playoffs again this year. I hope Sabean is fired.

They gave up 2 young MLB-ready arms just to tread water in the rotation. One of those MLB-ready arms was our #2 overall prospect entering the season, and has since been promoted to the BoSox.

Should the Giants have attempted to get a 2B? A OF? Another SP? What would THAT have cost?

I have said it before and I am saying it again...

I don't want the Giants to make a trade this year (unless it is a sell, but the Giants just don't make those trades). I am, however, in favor of them going after Castillo. But that also goes against their established MO.

 

[Stokes1931]

Before the ASB, the Giants had 31 Sac Flies

Since the ASB, the Giants have exactly one Sac Fly. ONE! UNO!



And dead last in all of baseball in XBH.

What the hell has happened to this team? They come home, they get a day off, and they come out and play like carp. Nice rally in the 9th, but then blew chunks in the 10th.

 

[GiantsPackersChamps2011]

And in my head, I am smarter than Noggin and Sabey Sabes, right? Right? RIGHT?!?!?

I am really tired of Blanco's crappy plate approach. Bam Bam has not helped him, perhaps he is beyond help. At the moment, I am tired of the whole bunch. Except maybe Pence. Even when he has an 0-fer, he plays with passion and heart. Posey seems to have disappeared, as has Morse. Panda was lights out in MIL, but silent since.

This is just bad baseball to watch/listen to.

Noggin: "Well, Sale is a great pitcher and threw well tonight. We had few chances. But we swung the bats well. Vogey pitched a helluva game except one pitch. We won't make any changes, because the odds are that no matter what we do, we suck right now."

I like Blanco. He seems like a really nice guy and teammate, he works hard (nobody expected him to even be an MLB player). But he just seems to lack in-game awareness and the mental side of the game. He isn't smart on the base paths, he hacks like a slugger and just doesn't use what he has naturally. Disappointing

 

[Band of Brothers]

Giants lose a heart breaker 3-2 to White Sox

The Giants did almost everything right tonight except Chris Sale and the White Sox did it just a little better. Giants lose a heart breaker as Vogey pitched a fabulous game going 7 innings only giving up 2 ER. He deserved the win But Sale went 8 shutout innings to up Vogey . The Giants did battle back in the 9th inning to tie the game and almost win it but Beckham the White Sox 2nd baseman made the play of the night spearing a ground ball up the middle and the flip to start a key DP. White Sox win it in 10 innings 3-2 in a well played game but now rhe Giants fall 6 behind in the West.

Wednesday is a day game and the Giants have to find a way to turn things around here soon. They are still in this thing and it's no time to stop believing in the Band of Brothers. I wish I could help them out in some way but all I can do is write about the game and cheer them on. My only wish is that Sabean would of helped the team out more this year making a few trades. Gotta fight harder Band of Brothers .

How about a song to get this thing back on track.

Go Giants !!



on youtube...

Bon Jovi - I Believe

 

[Mays-Fan]

I don't remember all these fouls into the face of the catchers in the past. Is it just me, or there a LOT more now than there were?

I don't remember it being an issue for Kennedy, Decker, Brenly, Melvin, etc. Of course it was an issue for Matheny, but not Santiago or Johnson.

Purely speculation on my part, but perhaps it is because of the "safer" masks that catchers are less inclined to protect their heads with the glove, and more inclined to use the glove as a target for the pitcher. Or that somehow, the catchers are closer to the plate.

Also, the growing awareness of the seriousness of concussions and "head shots" is making everyone more sensitive to every time a catcher takes a shot.

 

[Stokes1931]

Vogelsong received zero runs of support tonight for the eighth time this season. It was the sixth time it happened in his past nine starts.

Awful.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Vogelsong received zero runs of support tonight for the eighth time this season. It was the sixth time it happened in his past nine starts.

Awful.

Agreed. Just unacceptable at any level. I wish no ill will to Meulens, but he needs to be replaced - today. Find him another job in the org, but please get someone else in there who will have a fresh impact on the hitters.

 

[Stokes1931]

Agreed. Just unacceptable at any level. I wish no ill will to Meulens, but he needs to be replaced - today. Find him another job in the org, but please get someone else in there who will have a fresh impact on the hitters.

The Giants have some decent hitters. And yet, they have all gone into the crapper for extended periods this season. It is not uncommon for a hitter or two to slump, and get hot, that's the nature of a long season. Even Carew and Gwynn had slumps, which admittedly lasted a few games rather than a few weeks.

I am puzzled by how much impact Bam Bam makes. The hitters seem to be getting worse each year. If they have tuned him out, he should go. If he is not helping them develop, he should go. If it is all due to injuries, that's not on him. The Giants Way of hitting does not appear to be working well, and terribly susceptible to extended slumps.

This is not a confident group right now, and it shows. The XBH power is gone, at home and the road. The ability to string together hits has mostly disappeared. Situational hitting is bad. And even when we get the opportunity (Pence at 3rd last night, Blanco a few games ago), we make idiotic baserunning blunders for the sake of making things happen. Noggin refuses to run, sacrifice, etc. And we have only one Sac Fly since the ASB. One!

I don't think cutting BamBam loose is the answer, but SOMETHING has to be done. Sabey Sabes is not getting us any more help via trades, so we are what we are.

I am also concerned with not just our inability to draft hitters, but more than that, to develop hitters in the minors. It seems to be a system wide problem. Are these hitters getting better? (Gary Brown is not.) The inability of guys like Perez to transition from .300 hitter at Fresno to more than a .150 hitter at the major league level is maddening. Granted, it is a huge jump, but these guys do not look prepared.

Here's hoping for a better day today, but it is based on faith, not sight, as I see no reason to hope that these hitters can and will turn it around. After all, we've been waiting for more than three months now. It is no longer a bug, it is a feature.

 

[Stokes1931]

Giants are actually hitting quite well with RISP post-ASB at a .311 clip

Unfortunately, two things are going wrong.

One, there have been fewer opportunities with RISP.

Two, many of the hits just move runners over without scoring, i.e. an infield single with a runner on 2nd. Happened last night in the 9th, in KC twice on Sunday, etc.

Pre-ASB, Giants were averaging 3.9 runs per game

Post-ASB, Giants are averaging 3.6 runs per game, in spite of higher RISP hitting.

The Giants are even hitting slightly better .306 OBP vs .303 OBP.

A huge problem has been the slugging. Pre-ASB was .383, Post-ASB is .342 (by my calculations).

 

[Mays-Fan]

The Giants have some decent hitters. And yet, they have all gone into the crapper for extended periods this season. It is not uncommon for a hitter or two to slump, and get hot, that's the nature of a long season. Even Carew and Gwynn had slumps, which admittedly lasted a few games rather than a few weeks.

I am puzzled by how much impact Bam Bam makes. The hitters seem to be getting worse each year. If they have tuned him out, he should go. If he is not helping them develop, he should go. If it is all due to injuries, that's not on him. The Giants Way of hitting does not appear to be working well, and terribly susceptible to extended slumps.

This is not a confident group right now, and it shows. The XBH power is gone, at home and the road. The ability to string together hits has mostly disappeared. Situational hitting is bad. And even when we get the opportunity (Pence at 3rd last night, Blanco a few games ago), we make idiotic baserunning blunders for the sake of making things happen. Noggin refuses to run, sacrifice, etc. And we have only one Sac Fly since the ASB. One!

I don't think cutting BamBam loose is the answer, but SOMETHING has to be done. Sabey Sabes is not getting us any more help via trades, so we are what we are.

I am also concerned with not just our inability to draft hitters, but more than that, to develop hitters in the minors. It seems to be a system wide problem. Are these hitters getting better? (Gary Brown is not.) The inability of guys like Perez to transition from .300 hitter at Fresno to more than a .150 hitter at the major league level is maddening. Granted, it is a huge jump, but these guys do not look prepared.

Here's hoping for a better day today, but it is based on faith, not sight, as I see no reason to hope that these hitters can and will turn it around. After all, we've been waiting for more than three months now. It is no longer a bug, it is a feature.

Ultimately, the hitting coach is like the offensive coordinator in football. If we aren't scoring runs, it his Meulens' responsibility. Injuries have played a big part to be sure, but there has been a huge drop-off in replacements.

And agreed as to the minors. It seems like Meulens should have some influence re the approach in the minors. The primary goal of a minor league hitter should be to prepare for the majors, and not maximize stats in the minors. I would hope it is Meulens' responsibility to see that this happens and oversee how it is done. Right now we just aren't developing major league hitters with needed regularity. If the average major league player has a playing career of eight years, that means we need to replace roughly three players a year. I don't see that happening here. We are being forced to overpay to bring in marginal replacements. We should by and large be able to fill any voids internally with someone who can hit better than .180 with a .550 OPS in The Show.

So, IMHO, we need a shake-up in our offense - show some urgency. Again, nothing personal against Meulens, but he is responsible. He's had more than ample opportunity to prove himself, but he has fallen short. He needs to be reassigned - today if possible.

 

[msgkings322]

Ultimately, the hitting coach is like the offensive coordinator in football. If we aren't scoring runs, it his Meulens' responsibility. Injuries have played a big part to be sure, but there has been a huge drop-off in replacements.

And agreed as to the minors. It seems like Meulens should have some influence re the approach in the minors. The primary goal of a minor league hitter should be to prepare for the majors, and not maximize stats in the minors. I would hope it is Meulens' responsibility to see that this happens and oversee how it is done. Right now we just aren't developing major league hitters with needed regularity. If the average major league player has a playing career of eight years, that means we need to replace roughly three players a year. I don't see that happening here. We are being forced to overpay to bring in marginal replacements. We should by and large be able to fill any voids internally with someone who can hit better than .180 with a .550 OPS in The Show.

So, IMHO, we need a shake-up in our offense - show some urgency. Again, nothing personal against Meulens, but he is responsible. He's had more than ample opportunity to prove himself, but he has fallen short. He needs to be reassigned - today if possible.

While I agree Meulens should be fired to at least send a message, I don't think your analogy to a football OC works. The OC is FAR more important, as football is a team game and only the OC can truly create a football offense. In baseball it's basically a game of individuals disguised as a 'team' game. The hitting coach can help a bit or hurt a bit but if the hitters slump they slump.

Your point about replacing hitters is correct but that falls on Sabean, it's his fault we were so thin and got rocked by injuries exposing our thin bench and farm.

The team was hitting like crazy, with Meulens in charge, for the first 2 months of the year. It's just baseball.

But as I said, I do favor firing him because it can only help at least symbolically. It can't possibly make things worse.

 

[Stokes1931]

While I agree Meulens should be fired to at least send a message, I don't think your analogy to a football OC works. The OC is FAR more important, as football is a team game and only the OC can truly create a football offense. In baseball it's basically a game of individuals disguised as a 'team' game. The hitting coach can help a bit or hurt a bit but if the hitters slump they slump.

Your point about replacing hitters is correct but that falls on Sabean, it's his fault we were so thin and got rocked by injuries exposing our thin bench and farm.

The team was hitting like crazy, with Meulens in charge, for the first 2 months of the year. It's just baseball.

But as I said, I do favor firing him because it can only help at least symbolically. It can't possibly make things worse.

I would guess that each team has a system-wide philosophy. It would be absolute chaos for a low-A hitter to get to high-A with a completely different hitting approach. (Swing at the first pitch, no, work the count, no, stay back and go oppo, no, pull everything, no, hit it on the ground, no, air it out, etc).

That said, the A's (Moneyball) seem to value OBP, and it is working for them. Of course, they have stellar pitching, which we used to have.

Is there any discernible "Giants Way" as an org for hitters? Obviously, a guy like Bonds would have a different approach to Blanco, though Blanco sees no difference evidently! But given that there are power guys and average guys and speed guys, is there a common thread?

I have long wished for more speed in the lineup, and more creating of scoring opportunities, but Noggin (bless him) seems against all of it. Next year, instead of re-signing Morse for his two months' production, why not bring up Ford? Put him in LF and let him get on base and run like crazy? He'd be cheap, which ought to appeal to Sabes.

 

[msgkings322]

I would guess that each team has a system-wide philosophy. It would be absolute chaos for a low-A hitter to get to high-A with a completely different hitting approach. (Swing at the first pitch, no, work the count, no, stay back and go oppo, no, pull everything, no, hit it on the ground, no, air it out, etc).

That said, the A's (Moneyball) seem to value OBP, and it is working for them. Of course, they have stellar pitching, which we used to have.

Is there any discernible "Giants Way" as an org for hitters? Obviously, a guy like Bonds would have a different approach to Blanco, though Blanco sees no difference evidently! But given that there are power guys and average guys and speed guys, is there a common thread?

I have long wished for more speed in the lineup, and more creating of scoring opportunities, but Noggin (bless him) seems against all of it. Next year, instead of re-signing Morse for his two months' production, why not bring up Ford? Put him in LF and let him get on base and run like crazy? He'd be cheap, which ought to appeal to Sabes.

Right now the org philosophy seems to be hacking, free swinging, first pitch is best you'll see, etc. Also no bunts, steals, etc (Moneyball attitude on giving up outs). cal has noted that the hitters OPS on the first pitch is better than any other so it's 'working'.

Re Ford (the bolded): well, it's not up to us to put him on base, the other pitcher has to allow it. Ford can't get on base and you can't steal first.

Look, we're in a slump triggered by injuries. It's gone on a long time and we're still 1/2 game back of the wildcard. With some mean reversion we still are very much in the wildcard hunt without needing to change anything. Might not happen but it's just what it is. Other contenders have gone through some slumps, Detroit is in one now for example, as is Toronto and Atlanta. They suck but they happen every year. What is there to say?

I do wish Bochy was more open to trying stuff to shake things up but in the end these guys have to hit like they have shown they can, pure and simple.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Right now the org philosophy seems to be hacking, free swinging, first pitch is best you'll see, etc. Also no bunts, steals, etc (Moneyball attitude on giving up outs). cal has noted that the hitters OPS on the first pitch is better than any other so it's 'working'.

I object to the 'right now'. While technically true (yes, now it is true) I must point out that this is not new, ("right now" implies that it used to be different until recently). Does anybody remember "Brain-dead Caribbean hitters hacking at slop nightly" ? The Giants have been hackers for a long time.