3-4 or 4-3

[boogiewithstu2007]

What are you guys feeling with the Seahawks 3-4 this year ? I’m thinking we should go to a base 4-3 and run 3-4 on obvious passing downs… I like the 3-4 but you need a monster at NT who can do one job, not get pushed back, think Vince Wilfork who anchored NE 3-4 for years.. It puts extra pressure on your D-line and relies big time on your LB’s to blitz when needed and fill the gaps vs the run something we’re sucking at on a miserable level the last 8 weeks or so … I look at teams that have run successful 3-4 defenses and they have studs in all the right spots for it to work… Also a D coordinator that likes to blitz, ala Dick Lebeau… I don’t know, I love the 3-4 in passing situations having that extra cover guy can be big, but vs the run it can put you in a disadvantage, as we’ve seen…

 

[flyerhawk]

I'm not sure how much it really matters whether we play a 3-4 or a 4-3. Do we call Darrell Taylor a lineback or a defensive end? Or Mafe? Or Nwosu? If they are in a 3 point stance does that make them a lineman?

I do agree completely about blitzing. I don't think that is it the DC that is unwilling to blitz as we have had 5 different DCs and none of them were keen on blitzing here. Pete's philosophy was always to have a relatively simple defense that you execute really well. When you have the talent for that, it works great.

The reason other teams do a lot of complex blitzes is because it is easier to teach a scheme to a less talented player than to make them a more talented player.

Ultimately what the team needs is more talented players, particularly at the interior of the line. Our interior DL neither clogs the lanes OR penetrate to collapse the pocket with any regularity. That needs to be fixed, first and foremost.

 

[MrS]

I would like to know the logic behind switching to a scheme that almost none of your front 7 fit in.

If they stick with it, we should see a ton of new names up front next year. I hope.

 

[flyerhawk]

I would like to know the logic behind switching to a scheme that almost none of your front 7 fit in.

If they stick with it, we should see a ton of new names up front next year. I hope.

I completely disagree with this. Our front 7 is actually well suited to play a 3-4. The only player you could argue isn't a great fit is Brooks. Taylor, Mafe, Barton, and Nwosu are all perfectly fine players in a 3-4 as far as type goes. Same goes for Mone, Ford, Woods, and Harris as DEs.

The problem we have is that the only real NT we have is Al Woods who is 35 years old and can't be expected to play as many snaps as we need him to. him. The bigger problem is that they just aren't good enough.

 

[MrS]

I completely disagree with this. Our front 7 is actually well suited to play a 3-4. The only player you could argue isn't a great fit is Brooks. Taylor, Mafe, Barton, and Nwosu are all perfectly fine players in a 3-4 as far as type goes. Same goes for Mone, Ford, Woods, and Harris as DEs.

The problem we have is that the only real NT we have is Al Woods who is 35 years old and can't be expected to play as many snaps as we need him to. him. The bigger problem is that they just aren't good enough.

Mafe, nwosu and harris weren't on the team last year and I would argue the DL play is evidence none of them fit the scheme, we went from 2nd in rush y/a to 25th with almost all the same guys.

Taylor is one of the few existing players from the previous year that feels like a fit.

As for barton, he is God awful and Should be seen on special teams only.

Outside of harris and maybe adams, I wouldnt keep a single DT on this team next year unless I absolutely had to.

Maybe we can trade brooks for a DT because he is extremely unimpressive in general and should be upgraded.

 

[flyerhawk]

Mafe, nwosu and harris weren't on the team last year and I would argue the DL play is evidence none of them fit the scheme, we went from 2nd in rush y/a to 25th with almost all the same guys.

Taylor is one of the few existing players from the previous year that feels like a fit.

As for barton, he is God awful and Should be seen on special teams only.

Outside of harris and maybe adams, I wouldnt keep a single DT on this team next year unless I absolutely had to.

Maybe we can trade brooks for a DT because he is extremely unimpressive in general and should be upgraded.

Well we got rid of Bobby Wagner so I'm guessing that may have had an impact. Replacing Bobby Wagner with Cody Barton was...... not great. Al Woods has missed almost as many games as he's played.

I think your post basically proves my point. We simply don't have good players regardless of whether we play a 4-3 or 3-4. Let's not pretend this defense was good last year. Or the year before. Or the year before. Or the year before. It hasn't been good since we lost Kam and Avril.

 

[Anointed One]

Talent could be the key as well... I have never seen a Pete Carroll defense miss so many tackles... It's crazy how many tackles we miss each game... I understand a few here and there but it seems like there is one every other play.....

Wagner rarely missed tackles... Cody always misses tackles or he's in the wrong spot... Brooks misses too many tackles as well and he can't cover... We have missed Wagner badly... That's a huge reason why our run defense isn't as good imo... The gap between Wagner and Barton is too large to overcome at that position...

 

[MrS]

Well we got rid of Bobby Wagner so I'm guessing that may have had an impact. Replacing Bobby Wagner with Cody Barton was...... not great. Al Woods has missed almost as many games as he's played.

I think your post basically proves my point. We simply don't have good players regardless of whether we play a 4-3 or 3-4. Let's not pretend this defense was good last year. Or the year before. Or the year before. Or the year before. It hasn't been good since we lost Kam and Avril.

We definitely lack talent on D, have no difference makers and losing wagner definitely hurts but I dont think he alone accounts for the huge drop in run D effectiveness

 

[flyerhawk]

We definitely lack talent on D, have no difference makers and losing wagner definitely hurts but I dont think he alone accounts for the huge drop in run D effectiveness

No. I also think we don't have effective NTs.

Ultimately, what would be the difference in our formation?

Our top snap counts on the front 7 are..

Brooks - 1001
Nwosu -804
Barton - 773
Ford - 558
Jefferson - 512
Harris - 492
Taylor - 412

compare that to 2022

Wagner -1129
Brooks - 1109
Green - 847
Ford - 802
Woods - 602
Taylor - 545
Mayowa - 510

The big differences have been Barton taking Wags snaps and Nwosu taking Greens snaps and Woods being significant fewer snaps. Woods had nearly double the run defense snaps last year than this year.

I just don't see how the defense would change all that much if we were playing a 4-3 rather than a 3-4. Our personnel would likely be the same. We still wouldn't have any effective 2 gap interior lineman outside of Al Woods sometimes.

 

[MrS]

I think they switched knowing there would be growing pains, but in a rebuilding year thats acceptable.

And then they won a bunch of games and it went acceptable anymore. Either way, they need big changes on defense if they are going to improve.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Obviously both the 4-3 and 3-4 can work. Takes talented players and the right coaching either way. With a 3-4 getting a true nose tackle is important. @boogiewithstu2007 mentions Vince Wilford and that's a perfect example of a true nose tackle. Nice thing about drafting nose tackles is you don't have to use a first to get one, maybe not even a second. Siaki Ika or T'Vondre Sweat , Keondre Coburnlook look like a fit at the position Ika 350, Sweat 340, Coburn 346. Need that kind of heft to plug the middle good.
@Anointed One mentioned tackling being bad and he's right it's been real bad this season. The DC needs to clean that up pronto, I'm sure Carroll is aware and will want that fixed next season or the Seahawks will have a new DC in 2024.
Think as @MrS said this season was going have growing pains because rebuilding and new defensive system. This draft is so big, could launch the Seahawks if done well, but yet daunting because of all the needs on DL, interior OL, better LBs and the big one a franchise QB and depth everywhere.

 

[Screamin12th]

We DO NOT have the front to run a 3-4 right now. You need DE's that can run in a 3-4, or i should say the outside Linebackers. Taylor can't run, Mafe can run but he was a little raw coming out of college so the book is not written yet on him. These guys will be tasked to cover RB and TE and to be honest we just don't have "those guys" on the team. They are more pure 4-3 DE's like it or not thats just how they stack up but like i said Mafe is still open for debate. Then your three guys on the inside have to be absolutely monsters in a 3-4 with a Nose tackle that forces double teams on almost every play. We do not have that at NT.

Our linebackers are being swallowed up by lineman because the offenses can block 1 on 1 with little to no problem leaving at least one olineman that can be schemed to get on the Linebacker. When watching the Hawks tendencies you can see how they like to protect the linebackers because yes thats a thing you NEED to do on defense to allow them to make plays at the LOS and in a 3-4 this is MUCH harder than a 4-3. Harris, Jefferson, Ford and Adams are just not up to the task of being someone that takes 2 guys and ONE of them needs to be. Al Woods is a man beast but even he can be stonewalled by a single Olineman a lot of the time not forcing a 2nd man to stay in to contain him allowing that "second man " to attack the Linebackers.

Barton and Brooks are not good at all working through traffic and this season has shown that. They have to be clean something that happened more often in a 4-3 for them.

Hawks need to draft a lot of players just on the DL alone and need to get a true stud NT if they continue to run this funky 3-4 hybrid they are running.

As you can see i didn't say anything about Nwosu, Thats because I think he can play in this defense be it a 3-4 or a 4-3 but i think he would be a stud in a 4-3.

​

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Well we got rid of Bobby Wagner so I'm guessing that may have had an impact. Replacing Bobby Wagner with Cody Barton was...... not great. Al Woods has missed almost as many games as he's played.

I think your post basically proves my point. We simply don't have good players regardless of whether we play a 4-3 or 3-4. Let's not pretend this defense was good last year. Or the year before. Or the year before. Or the year before. It hasn't been good since we lost Kam and Avril.

Vs the run though, OUCH it’s been a brutal stretch …

 

[flyerhawk]

Vs the run though, OUCH it’s been a brutal stretch …

Super brutal. Because our front 7 sucks.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Super brutal. Because our front 7 sucks.

That’s part of it, but the 3-4 has something to do with it also … We need to solidify some spots in this incoming draft …