2012 vs 1989

[calsnowskier]

2012

World Series roster

Cain
Bumgarner
Vogelsong
Zito
Lincecum

Casilla
Mota
Lopez
Afield
Kontos
Romo
Mijares

Posey
Belt
Scutaro
Crawford
Sandoval
Blanco
Pagan
Pence

Sanchez
Huff
Theriot
Arias
Nady

Others to play with Giants during the season

Hacker
Petit

Otero
Edlefsen
Hensley
Penny
Loux
Machi
Wilson
Blackley
Runzler

Whiteside
Pill
Burriss
Culberson
Gillaspie
Peguero
Christian
Schierholtz


They faced 6 elimination games in the NLDS and NLCS, then swept the Tigers in the World Series. Panda hit 3 HRs in game 1 of the World Series, on his way to taking the Series MVP. Buster Posey came back from a minor injury in 2011 to likely win NL MVP. Melk-gate. Wilson going down after his second game.

 

[calsnowskier]

1989

World Series roster

Garrelts
Reuschel
Robinson
LaCoss
Downs

Hammaker
Bedrosian
Brantley
Lefferts


Kennedy
Clark
Thompson
Uribe
Williams
Mitchell
Butler
Madonado

Bathe
Manwarring
Riles
Litton
Nixon
Oberkfell
Sheridan

One other player that did not play, and I can not find a record of. I assume it was Krukow.

Others to play for the Giants in 1989

Gossage
Krukow
Camacho
Knepper
Wilson
McCament
Cook
Price
Dravecky
Mulholland
Swan
Tate

Jones
Jurak
Speier
Brenley
Laga
Weaver
Steele
Benjamin
Hayes

This was the Earthquake. This was Draveckey. This was the Catch.

 

[calsnowskier]

While the '89 team lost in a sweep, it may actually be the most important team to this board. This was the team that was the culmination of three years of Humm Baby baseball. Without this team, it is possible that many of us here are not the freaky fanatics that we are today.

Dave Draveky, Kevin Mitchell, Will Clark, Goose, Bedrock... These are the names that instinctively come to mind for me when i think of the Giants. I was old-ish for this to be that formative, but I had only been following baseball since '87, and this was the HUGE series.

However, they got embarrassed in the World Series. Going out in 4, no matter the circumstances, leaves a bad taste, especially when the REAL taste has been experienced.

2012 had the highest of highs (a sweep in the World Series) and the lowest of lows (losing the first 2 at home to Cincy, Melk-gate, losing Weez after his second game). The post-season is truly one for the ages. Only the '04 and '06 BoSox faced as many elimination games as the Giants did this year. A whole new kind on torture.

 

[gp956]

sOPS+

Year	2012	1989
as C	136	80
as 1B	108	140
as 2B	92	103
as 3B	93	110
as SS	101	79
as LF	108	157
as CF	102	100
as RF	94	69

 

[calsnowskier]

sOPS+

Year	2012	1989
as C	136	80
as 1B	108	140
as 2B	92	103
as 3B	93	110
as SS	101	79
as LF	108	157
as CF	102	100
as RF	94	69

Offense is hands down in favor of '89.

Pitching...

Not so much. The Giants used 15 different starters in '89. 15!!!!! Heck, Buffy had 18 starts. As we have discussed quite a bit, the '12 Giants used only 7 different starters, and the 6 and 7 starters only started one game each, and one of those was on hangover day. Reuschel was the 40 year old ace in '89 while Cain was the ace in '12.

On the field, '89 was built very similar to this years Tigers. Their SPs were not quite as good as Detroits, but they were comparable. Both teams also had two super-stud bats (Mitchell/Clark vs Cabrera/Fielder). '89 had superior D with Clark, Thompson, Uribe, Williams and Butler all as ++ defenders at their positions. Detroit this year was just plain bad on defense.

The 2012 team swept the 2012 Tigers.

 

[gp956]

Offense is hands down in favor of '89.

Pitching...

Not so much. The Giants used 15 different starters in '89. 15!!!!! Heck, Buffy had 18 starts. As we have discussed quite a bit, the '12 Giants used only 7 different starters, and the 6 and 7 starters only started one game each, and one of those was on hangover day. Reuschel was the 40 year old ace in '89 while Cain was the ace in '12.

On the field, '89 was built very similar to this years Tigers. Their SPs were not quite as good as Detroits, but they were comparable. Both teams also had two super-stud bats (Mitchell/Clark vs Cabrera/Fielder). '89 had superior D with Clark, Thompson, Uribe, Williams and Butler all as ++ defenders at their positions. Detroit this year was just plain bad on defense.

The 2012 team swept the 2012 Tigers.

It's closer than you think:

Cumulative/Weighted sOPS+
1989: 105.8
2012: 104.2

That's the aggregate sOPS+ produced from the eight field positions.


Regarding the defense: Yes, the infield defense in 1989 was the best the Giants have ever had. Outfield defense was average, but, overall, yeah, you've got to give the defensive nod to 1989.

 

[gp956]

Pitching splits:

sOPS+ against (lower number means better pitching)

		1989	2012
starter		92	91		
Reliever	93	104

Again, the stats say these pitching staffs, relative to league averages, are close.

 

[gp956]

Run differential favors the 1989 team, by quite a bit. 92 wins predicted to 88 wins for 2012. And regarding the previous post, why is the 2012 pitching staff, overall, looking worse than the 1989 staff? Probably because the low leverage pitchers of 2012 stunk - and, of course, these are innings pitched, and stats generated, by pitchers who would never see the field in critical games or situations.

 

[tzill]

Run differential favors the 1989 team, by quite a bit. 92 wins predicted to 88 wins for 2012. And regarding the previous post, why is the 2012 pitching staff, overall, looking worse than the 1989 staff? Probably because the low leverage pitchers of 2012 stunk - and, of course, these are innings pitched, and stats generated, by pitchers who would never see the field in critical games or situations.

Hensley, Penny, Loux, Mota, Edlefsen, Otero, Machi, Hacker, and Blackley....

What a shitshow of relievers.

 

[tzill]

The rough batting equivalent of uselessness this year only runs about three deep:

ManTurd, Pill, and Huffer.

 

[tzill]

Final oWAR for 2012 regular season:

MVP 7.1
Leche 4.6
Oxy 4.5
Moped 2.9
Panda 2.4
Pick 2.2
Herk 1.6
Kobe 1.4
Shark 1.1
Fish 0.9
Riot 0.8
Chez3 0.7
Huffer 0.0

 

[msgkings322]

Hensley, Penny, Loux, Mota, Edlefsen, Otero, Machi, Hacker, and Blackley....

What a shitshow of relievers.

Every team's back end of the pen is full of shitty arms. Those guys above were no worse than most mediocre arms. Hensley and Mota weren't that bad. And didn't Blackley turn into a serviceable starter with the A's?

 

[tzill]

Final Pitching WAR

Horse 3.6
Bum 1.8
Tron 1.8
Romo 1.8
Mijares 1.1
Hamburgler 0.7
LOOGY 0.5
KCya 0.4
Greek 0.4
Zeets -0.2
Weed -0.4
Timmah -2.0

 

[tzill]

Every team's back end of the pen is full of shitty arms. Those guys above were no worse than most mediocre arms. Hensley and Mota weren't that bad. And didn't Blackley turn into a serviceable starter with the A's?

Oh, no doubt. I'm not shocked, just appalled when I looked at the numbers. They were REALLY bad.

 

[gp956]

Final oWAR for 2012 regular season:

MVP 7.1
Leche 4.6
Oxy 4.5
Moped 2.9
Panda 2.4
Pick 2.2
Herk 1.6
Kobe 1.4
Shark 1.1
Fish 0.9
Riot 0.8
Chez3 0.7
Huffer 0.0

Herk did some serious damage to his future earning potential - the risk adjustment ratcheted up a couple of notches.

 

[msgkings322]

Final Pitching WAR

Horse 3.6
Bum 1.8
Tron 1.8
Romo 1.8
Mijares 1.1
Hamburgler 0.7
LOOGY 0.5
KCya 0.4
Greek 0.4
Zeets -0.2
Weed -0.4
Timmah -2.0

Anyone care to wager on how Timmah will pitch in 2013?

 

[gp956]

Anyone care to wager on how Timmah will pitch in 2013?

I'm guessing he'll be touching 95/96 mph with the four-seamer, and be a cy young candidate.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm guessing he'll be touching 95/96 mph with the four-seamer, and be a cy young candidate.

Pitchers are known to gain 14 MPH on their fastball in spring training, so it is possible...

 

[msgkings322]

I'm guessing he'll be touching 95/96 mph with the four-seamer, and be a cy young candidate.

I can never tell when you are joking...

 

[gp956]

Pitchers are known to gain 14 MPH on their fastball in spring training, so it is possible...

Cole Hammels shows the way.....