Why is Bridgewater dropping?

[mrwallace2ku]

Well Fran Tarkenton came out and literally said JF was the closest he's seen to himself (inc. Wilson in that discussion) so hard to argue with you.

If I was a Viking fan or any team that needed a QB top 10 I wouldn't mind my team drafting Manziel. Do I think he'll succeed in the NFL? No, but I've been wrong plenty before. I was sure Curry would be great for Seattle. Least I called Sanchez a bust PRE-DRAFT. That kid had bust written all over him. I was dead sure on that one, should've put money on it.

Didn't hear that, doesn't surprise me tho...

The thing about Manziel is his "escapability" in the pocket, Fran had that same intangible, ugly as it was. In today's NFL, I would have to put a "value" on such a trait. Gawd forbid IF he had an great O-line in front of him too, THAT's what helped Fran out in the end, Fran threw the worst balls I ever saw. Playing on natural turf thruout his career helped him too, slippin-n-sliding ya know..

 

[Shanemansj13]

And JaMarcus Russell looked great...How did that work out?

Using one example doesn't explain it, that's why I said I still don't pay attention to it. For me the most important attribute for a QB to have other than arm strength and accuracy is how mentally tough they are.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Fran Tarkenton was a pioneer for the mobile QB. He basically invented it... Hell, they even called him "the Mad Scrambler". The NFL had never seen that before, so of course it was easier at that time to find success with it.

If you think Manziel would see the same amount of success nowadays as Tarkenton because they have similar playing styles, then you are just flat out crazy.

Agreed entirely here. Mobile QBs just don't last nowadays. Players are too big and fast compared to when Tarkenton played. JF is Fran's size but the size and speed of the average linebacker/DE is just too different to compare.

There's a reason Wilson is successful, he's a passer first and foremost. Ben uses his strength to shed sacks and hold onto the ball as long as possible to find an open target. Wilson uses his legs to run around like a chicken with his head cut off in the backfield until he can find time to pass.

RG3 IMO wont last and will be considered a bust because if the option isn't there, he's running and taking off for yardage. JF plays the exact same way. Only a matter of time before BOOM, lights out. The other problem is those guys never really learn to pass in the pocket and go through progressions. Sure take some yardage here and there, but eventually defenses figure that out REAL quick and once you understand their passing 'style' (if it can even be called that) you put a man spy and then uh oh... you're taking hits to try and make plays happen with your feet or getting picked off with "HEY D IM TOTALLY THROWING TO THAT GUY!" plays.

And Wilson this year had to learn that too. Defenses figured out his little roll outs and read option PRETTY damn fast. It didn't take long, but Wilson has the pocket passing ability (he had it in college too) and ability to go through progressions pretty easily, so they had him do just that and he found success while Ds went, "DUUUUUUUUUUUR!?"

Can JF learn and do that? Time will tell. He wont be successful doing what he did in college though. It'll work the first year, but not after D coords get footage to study.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

Fran Tarkenton was a pioneer for the mobile QB. He basically invented it... Hell, they even called him "the Mad Scrambler". The NFL had never seen that before, so of course it was easier at that time to find success with it.

If you think Manziel would see the same amount of success nowadays as Tarkenton because they have similar playing styles, then you are just flat out crazy.

lolz...I have been called worse. Yep, I believe Manziel will suceed in the NFL with a good O-line in front of him...history proves me right with that statement.

Have ya'll seen ANY Ken Stabler highlights? He is the Left-hand version of Fran Tarkenton from the AFL.

 

[Nosferatu]

Same could be said for Fran Tarkenton and that guy resides in the HOF. NFL past dumpsters are littered with 6'4" 220 lb pure pocket passers that never transitioned to the pro game either.

Call me a nut, most have already, but I sure wouldn't mind taking a gamble with Manziel @ #8 this year. The 2nd coming of Tarkenton in my OP. AND yes he is a project for sure.

No Thank You! 2nd coming of Fran? He won't pass for 47,000 feet in the NFL...

I think Mettenberger will be the best QB of this class.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

^ lolz....

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

Ben uses his strength to shed sacks and hold onto the ball as long as possible to indirectly give me stomach ulcers. .

FIFY

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

FIFY

LOL. But it still produces. Wilson drives me nuts running around back there too.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

LOL. But it still produces. Wilson drives me nuts running around back there too.

Oh I've been known to redecorate the man cave while watching Ben do "his thing".

Steelers' fans were forced to learn how to drywall because of it...

 

[mrwallace2ku]

Oh I've been known to redecorate the man cave while watching Ben do "his thing".

Steelers' fans were forced to learn how to drywall because of it...

Funniest thing i have read all day...

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Oh I've been known to redecorate the man cave while watching Ben do "his thing".

Steelers' fans were forced to learn how to drywall because of it...

HAHA! Drove me nuts watching Seattle miss sacking him a couple times in the Super Bowl. Ever since then have given much respect to that guy for taking the shots and still delivering the ball. He is getting injured more and more though, I expect Wilson to have some injuries too with some of the risks he takes in the backfield, hopefully like Ben into his 30s. Can't believe Ben just turned 32, seems like yesterday when he was drafted.

When does Pitts start looking for a new QB? Ben's contract is up in 2 years when he'll be 34.

Pitts just needs to start STAYING healthy. That team has a bunch of good players, but just far too injured. Guess that's what happens when you're fielding one of the older teams. I'm still not sure Tomlin is the answer for you guys, yah he won a super bowl, but with the team already in place.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Mobile QBs just don't last nowadays.

Its funny how you can write off Cam, Russell, Kap and Robert. I don't see how you consider a record holding/breaking pro-bowler who leads his team to the playoffs a bust. Not every season can be successful when injuries occur.
If a healthy Robert Griffin can't lead his team to the playoffs THIS year, then you have to wonder. But for now, why not include Luck in your bust argument too...? He didn't make it to the superbowl and is clearly the most talented out of 2012 class.

For the record...I understand you will state your opinions.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

HAHA! Drove me nuts watching Seattle miss sacking him a couple times in the Super Bowl. Ever since then have given much respect to that guy for taking the shots and still delivering the ball. He is getting injured more and more though, I expect Wilson to have some injuries too with some of the risks he takes in the backfield, hopefully like Ben into his 30s. Can't believe Ben just turned 32, seems like yesterday when he was drafted.

When does Pitts start looking for a new QB? Ben's contract is up in 2 years when he'll be 34.

Pitts just needs to start STAYING healthy. That team has a bunch of good players, but just far too injured. Guess that's what happens when you're fielding one of the older teams. I'm still not sure Tomlin is the answer for you guys, yah he won a super bowl, but with the team already in place.

SB XL... Yea that was a tough one to watch for both sides. Ben played HORRIBLE but somehow PIT still found a way to win. Cheers to Cowher & Co.

PIT "believes" they are grooming Landry Jones (drafted last year) as of now... But I don't think he is the answer. He looked terrible in camps last offseason! I hope the FO has a plan, but I would imagine if Landry doesn't show vast improvement this offseason/preseason then they will draft a QB in the 1st couple rounds next year. But I wouldn't be surprised if they take a project type QB later in this draft (Logan Thomas maybe?).

Ben... PIT has been in heavy talks with Ben's agent already this offseason. Colbert has already stated that Ben WILL retire a Steeler so I would imagine that if he isn't extended after June 1st (PIT gains $8 mil in cap room for cutting ties with Woodley) then he will be extended next offseason Priority 1.

Health... Ben had his first full season since 2008 last year. Shocking, I know! But now that the O-line play is starting to surface I think Ben will stay upright more. He will still continue to play the same way regardless of how well the line blocks, so his health will always be an issue. He was making smarter decisions last season, so maybe he has turned over a new leaf? The main position that has been plagued by injuries has been the O-line. It has been a constant musical-chairs-type rotation year after year.

Tomlin... I've exhausted myself with this debate so all I will say is... Tomlin doesn't receive as much credit as he should. He proved it down the stretch last season.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Its funny how you can write off Cam, Russell, Kap and Robert. I don't see how you consider a record holding/breaking pro-bowler who leads his team to the playoffs a bust. Not every season can be successful when injuries occur.
If a healthy Robert Griffin can't lead his team to the playoffs THIS year, then you have to wonder. But for now, why not include Luck in your bust argument too...? He didn't make it to the superbowl and is clearly the most talented out of 2012 class.

For the record...I understand you will state your opinions.

Some differences to everything you're stating.

Cam = Guy is built like a freaking linebacker. He's like 250+ pounds. He can take a shot FAR better than ANYONE mobile in NFL history. No scrambling QB (let alone most QBs) are built like Cam so we can throw him right out of the convo.

Kaep = Not enough footage on the guy, but he's pretty slide happy and has an amazing O-Line/run game. If you put Kaep on the Skins I might see some of the same issues.

Wilson = Passer first and rarely if ever takes a shot. He is usually scrambling around in the backfield to make a pass, not to take off. Of his 100 or so rush attempts, he prob. took a shot on less than 5% most of which were head first dives with some tacklers coming on him, same as any other QB would take (QB sneaks, etc).

Griffin = The reason I thought Griffin would be a bust WHEN HE WAS DRAFTED (not saying it after he got injured) was he was a first option take off QB in college. If the designated option wasn't there, he'd take off. He also had a problem taking shots in college which is why he got injured a couple times. Because he's not making the reads and going air first, he tries to make plays with his legs = injury.


RG3 is also pretty scrawny. 215 lbs is not really that much. Kaep is 230 and Wilson is 206 although neither are taking unnecessary hits.


We'll see, totally get your last sentence about opinions, it's all it is. I will eat crow for the rest of my life is RG3 dominates and has a HOF career. I still eat crow for calling/thinking Aaron Curry was going to be amazing.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

SB XL... Yea that was a tough one to watch for both sides. Ben played HORRIBLE but somehow PIT still found a way to win. Cheers to Cowher & Co.

PIT "believes" they are grooming Landry Jones (drafted last year) as of now... But I don't think he is the answer. He looked terrible in camps last offseason! I hope the FO has a plan, but I would imagine if Landry doesn't show vast improvement this offseason/preseason then they will draft a QB in the 1st couple rounds next year. But I wouldn't be surprised if they take a project type QB later in this draft (Logan Thomas maybe?).

Ben... PIT has been in heavy talks with Ben's agent already this offseason. Colbert has already stated that Ben WILL retire a Steeler so I would imagine that if he isn't extended after June 1st (PIT gains $8 mil in cap room for cutting ties with Woodley) then he will be extended next offseason Priority 1.

Health... Ben had his first full season since 2008 last year. Shocking, I know! But now that the O-line play is starting to surface I think Ben will stay upright more. He will still continue to play the same way regardless of how well the line blocks, so his health will always be an issue. He was making smarter decisions last season, so maybe he has turned over a new leaf? The main position that has been plagued by injuries has been the O-line. It has been a constant musical-chairs-type rotation year after year.

Tomlin... I've exhausted myself with this debate so all I will say is... Tomlin doesn't receive as much credit as he should. He proved it down the stretch last season.

Eh I'll take your word on Tomlin. I know Steelers fans are passionate and you prob. know more than I do. Good to get an opinion from a Steeler fan on Tomlin.

And LANDRY JONES! That's where he went lol. I remember when he was #1 QB overall draft discussion and wondered what the F happened to him. Now I know, sure it's a google search away but nice to see these forums generating football knowledge lol.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

Eh I'll take your word on Tomlin. I know Steelers fans are passionate and you prob. know more than I do. Good to get an opinion from a Steeler fan on Tomlin.

And LANDRY JONES! That's where he went lol. I remember when he was #1 QB overall draft discussion and wondered what the F happened to him. Now I know, sure it's a google search away but nice to see these forums generating football knowledge lol.

Everything you ever hear against Tomlin is that he "inherited" a SB team. Which is true to a certain extent. But Cowher didn't draft that team either. Kevin Colbert (GM) did. Colbert was responsible for building that team, and he is still responsible for it. Don't get me wrong, Cowher & Tomlin are complete opposites in the coaching world but in terms of winning talent, they both shared the same producer. Colbert's ship has been slowly sinking since 2008 in terms of drafting viable talent. He's found a few gems, but the classes of 08 & 09 were complete busts. Which has really hurt this team in the long run, hence why they have had to keep these old vets around so long.

Yea it's weird that not many people knew Landry Jones landed in the Burgh. He was on top of all the boards for a while, then fell off cliff at some point. I think after everyone shot him down their boards they just forgot all about him. When PIT grabbed him in the 4th Round nobody seemed to care much. To be honest I wasn't all that impressed with him, but in the 4th round he is definitely worth a shot! Some of the Steeler brass were impressed enough with him to think he would eventually replace Ben. Hard to imagine it, but I've been wrong before.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

^ When the hell does Markus Wheaton get his chance to chase down Benny Balls? Ya got a goodie there, an unused one at that.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

^ When the hell does Markus Wheaton get his chance to chase down Benny Balls? Ya got a goodie there, an unused one at that.

If he can manage to not break a finger for an extended period of time... Then he will!

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Some differences to everything you're stating.

Cam = Guy is built like a freaking linebacker. He's like 250+ pounds. He can take a shot FAR better than ANYONE mobile in NFL history. No scrambling QB (let alone most QBs) are built like Cam so we can throw him right out of the convo.

Kaep = Not enough footage on the guy, but he's pretty slide happy and has an amazing O-Line/run game. If you put Kaep on the Skins I might see some of the same issues.

Wilson = Passer first and rarely if ever takes a shot. He is usually scrambling around in the backfield to make a pass, not to take off. Of his 100 or so rush attempts, he prob. took a shot on less than 5% most of which were head first dives with some tacklers coming on him, same as any other QB would take (QB sneaks, etc).

Griffin = The reason I thought Griffin would be a bust WHEN HE WAS DRAFTED (not saying it after he got injured) was he was a first option take off QB in college. If the designated option wasn't there, he'd take off. He also had a problem taking shots in college which is why he got injured a couple times. Because he's not making the reads and going air first, he tries to make plays with his legs = injury.


RG3 is also pretty scrawny. 215 lbs is not really that much. Kaep is 230 and Wilson is 206 although neither are taking unnecessary hits.


We'll see, totally get your last sentence about opinions, it's all it is. I will eat crow for the rest of my life is RG3 dominates and has a HOF career. I still eat crow for calling/thinking Aaron Curry was going to be amazing.

I'm going to disagree with your thoughts on RG3. I watched him a bunch in college and he can go thru his reads when given time. He also throws the long ball on target like no one else.
Now his problem is that he is skinny and can't take the hits. I think he rushed his come back, not sure if he is the same QB since coming back.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

If he can manage to not break a finger for an extended period of time... Then he will!

Yep...gotta have those pinkys to catch those balls wif.

Maybe this year...