Ackley and Franklin

[1905 Giants]

Sandy Koufax did not throw one bullpen session when he pitched for the Dodgers, mostly because of a destroyed elbow, but he was able to throw more because he did not waste his the tearing of his ligaments on worthless bullpen sessions.

According to "Sandy Koufax" by Jane Leavy. Koufax did indeed throw in the bullpen. At least once over 100 pitches.

 

[NWinAZ]

Odd conversation I must say, but I must also say mechanics is important in every sport. I think old school pitchers pitched more innings than today's pitchers 1) They were allowed to 2) Mechanics were stressed over strength. Ryan and guys of his type will tell you that building lower body strength is way more important than building upper body strength. NFL QB's went through the over-building of the upper body and have since taken a step back from that type of training because they found mechanics increased velocity over muscle.

Just my two cents worth which I am giving you at a 50% discount.

 

[hawkfan1073]

I think most people when you say "bulking up" they hear "getting ripped" but bulking up can mean increasing lean muscle mass and increasing strength which is essential to being able to throw a baseball well. Thinking all you need to do to throw a baseball is build up your quads is absolutely ridiculous.

Anyways, it looks like ackley is getting bigger which I don't mind one bit. Now if only we could find a batting helmet for Franklin that doesnt make him look like the great gazoo (most of you are googling right now...lol)

 

[wazzu31]

You are wrong

Care to explain or just throw that out. I'm not a doctor whatsoever but that is precisely what trainiers have told me.

 

[wazzu31]

According to "Sandy Koufax" by Jane Leavy. Koufax did indeed throw in the bullpen. At least once over 100 pitches.

Hmm, maybe I am mistaken on that one. I just watched a special and it said Koufax's elbow was so fucked up with the Dodgers the only time he threw was game time.

 

[dude82]

I think most people when you say "bulking up" they hear "getting ripped" but bulking up can mean increasing lean muscle mass and increasing strength which is essential to being able to throw a baseball well. Thinking all you need to do to throw a baseball is build up your quads is absolutely ridiculous.

Anyways, it looks like ackley is getting bigger which I don't mind one bit. Now if only we could find a batting helmet for Franklin that doesnt make him look like the great gazoo (most of you are googling right now...lol)

As long as he switch-hits, he's gonna wear the double-flapped helmet. I don't know what they can do to make it less gazoo-ish, though.

 

[cezero]

wazzu was right about big arm and shoulder muscles not really being all that important for strong throwing. That goes for any sport that involves throwing. Good throws come more from having the proper mechanics and timing to transfer energy from the legs/core to the upper body.

wazzu is dead wrong about mechanics and throwing limits. Shoulder injuries for throwing athletes usually come from repetitive stress due to shoulder/tendon abnormalities that oftentimes don't become apparent until after getting past the teenage years. Young athletes are particularly susceptible to repetitive stress injury like this because a lot of times, physios don't find out about the problems until they surface.

For instance, if they find that a kid's shoulder pain is coming from anatomical problems like less space than usual between the shoulder and arm socket, which pinches and frays rotator cuff tendons, there are a lot of things they can do to minimize the repetitive stress. These can include a mandatory regime of special stretches and/or specific strengthening exercises that pull the arm bone down a little from the shoulder socket. Those are conservative treatments. There are others that are more invasive (surgery) if the more conservative treatments don't work. That's just one example. Usually, a good trainer or physio will also tweak the throwing motion to minimize the repetitive stress.

 

[Baseballnut77]

actually wazzu despite zero's idiotic comment you are partially right. I was able to sit down with Tom Seaver at a dinner not to long ago and we had a discussion about pitching and prior in particular.And he said the biggest difference between today's pitchers and pitchers from his day were simple.Pitchers from back in the 50's 60's and 70's in most games could care less about the K's. Not that they didn't strikeout batters because they did but guys back then usually hit percentages of pitches something like this 70 % fastballs 20% change-ups and 10% everything else.Todays pitchers rely on curves and sliders at way higher percentages. Seaver said he would work his fastball for most of the game at about 90% of top speed and just reach back for a little extra when he needed it and only throw a curve to the top hitters as a last resort. Thus he put little strain on his arm and worked deeper into games more often. plus he rarely pitched in between starts as they made 35 to 40 some starts every year.Prior relied much more heavily on his secondary pitches as do many of todays pitchers.Most of the greatest pitchers with long careers you will find didn't rely on curves or sliders, they all relied on control and not killing their arm's. It is the curves and the sliders not mechanics per say that are killing shoulders and elbows

 

[cezero]

I have baseballnut blocked, but I'm sure he said many moronic things. lol.

Literally the only regular on the M's board I had to do that with. Everybody else at least speaks coherently, even if I disagree with them sometimes.

 

[hawkfan1073]

You guys sure like to confuse pitchers and outfielders....
Ackley is an OUT-FIELD-ER...lets all say it together.

 

[cezero]

You guys sure like to confuse pitchers and outfielders....
Ackley is an OUT-FIELD-ER...lets all say it together.

If Ackley is getting bigger arms and shoulders, good for him. But when it comes to throwing, it doesn't matter as much as you might think. Having arm and shoulder muscles that are fit is important. Being able to curl 50s and bench 235 isn't important at all. Ackley may have gotten a little big more muscle mass in the shoulders and arms, though. Good for him.

Nick Franklin bulked up exactly how he should have to become better at throwing and batting....he put on 25 lbs in the off season, all legs and core.

 

[Baseballnut77]

yeah zero has me blocked yet seems to know when I post, complete moron. don't mind the little puppy wazzu. He knows not what he speaks

 

[seahawksfan234]

I've only skimmed through the thread but I saw the mention of PEDs and that always gets me interested.

In terms the correlation between building muscle and arm strength I honestly don't think that there is a huge correlation there. I can only speak from personal experience but I think a lot of how hard/how far you can throw a football or baseball is mostly genetic/mechanics. You're obviously going to see increased arm strength as you get stronger but I feel like the correlation is not as high as you would intuitively believe.

A real life example of this would be the NFL. Look at Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Jay Cutler or just about any NFL/College starting QB. You have to have a strong arm just to be able to make it to the professional level, and there are plenty of NFL/College players who are far from power-lifters that have the ability to throw the football pretty far.

Now football is obviously a different sport but I think it demonstrates my point that putting on muscle/strength is not going to create a huge difference in arm strength in baseball or football.

But I am no doctor and most of this is based on personal experience so take it how you feel.

 

[cezero]

I've only skimmed through the thread but I saw the mention of PEDs and that always gets me interested.

In terms the correlation between building muscle and arm strength I honestly don't think that there is a huge correlation there. I can only speak from personal experience but I think a lot of how hard/how far you can throw a football or baseball is mostly genetic/mechanics. You're obviously going to see increased arm strength as you get stronger but I feel like the correlation is not as high as you would intuitively believe.

A real life example of this would be the NFL. Look at Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Jay Cutler or just about any NFL/College starting QB. You have to have a strong arm just to be able to make it to the professional level, and there are plenty of NFL/College players who are far from power-lifters that have the ability to throw the football pretty far.

Now football is obviously a different sport but I think it demonstrates my point that putting on muscle/strength is not going to create a huge difference in arm strength in baseball or football.

But I am no doctor and most of this is based on personal experience so take it how you feel.

Well put.

Also, I love how this comes up every time a blocked user posts. It's a wonderful site feature:

This message is hidden because Baseballnut77 is on your ignore list.

It would be better if the idiotic things they said could be blocked when others quote them as well, but I'll take what I can get.

 

[blstoker]

It would be better if the idiotic things they said could be blocked when others quote them as well, but I'll take what I can get.

The only way that you could dislike his posts is if you saw what he wrote. Whether you read it or not is another story, but if your so anally vindictive as to view a (or several) post that is written by someone you put on your ignore list just so you can dislike it even without reading, or in essence just trolling baseballnut77, then that really is by far the lamest thing I've seen since coming to this site.

If you are actually reading his posts and disliking them based on their content, but then claiming you don't read the posts because of some sense that it actually helps your argument to say that...I don't even know what that is.

There are times that I agree with your assessment of what is going on and what you're posting about, but man, there are times when you just come off as a jackass.

 

[dude82]

I think we're getting off track here. Ackley is still learning the position and already appears to have good range in the little time that we've seen him out there. What'll be the difference (outside of his hitting) between whether Ackley becomes the everyday center fielder for years to come or whether he makes another position switch, to me, will be how well he takes to learning the ins and outs of the position. Right now, he's learning how to play the position again and, more importantly, how each ballpark plays (best angles to take, best way to play the ball off of the outfield walls, how much and what kind of an effect the wind has on line drives and fly balls, even how fast or slow the outfield grass is in each park and whether it'll come straight to him or snake on him).

He's learning all of that on the fly right now and once he gets a handle on all of that, his defense should improve. If the only question people have about Ackley playing center when it's all said and done is his arm, I'm fine with that. There are things he can do out there to make it less of a liability and I mentioned them above. He may even be given suggestions (legal suggestions) on how to increase his arm strength, now that he's an outfielder, that he can work into his routine in the off-season. I'm honestly not all that worried about having him out there.

 

[Baseballnut77]

Good to see that others seen that as well. It always makes me laugh on boards when a person somehow believes they are either smarter or tougher than someone else and 9 times out of 10 it is when you make them look silly on a post they go out of their way to "try" and take them back down. problem with that concept is you kind of have to not already be known as the village idiot for it to be effective and zero, from his days on espn is unable to be that person lol. appreciate it stoker

 

[cezero]

The only way that you could dislike his posts is if you saw what he wrote. Whether you read it or not is another story, but if your so anally vindictive as to view a (or several) post that is written by someone you put on your ignore list just so you can dislike it even without reading, or in essence just trolling baseballnut77, then that really is by far the lamest thing I've seen since coming to this site.

If you are actually reading his posts and disliking them based on their content, but then claiming you don't read the posts because of some sense that it actually helps your argument to say that...I don't even know what that is.

There are times that I agree with your assessment of what is going on and what you're posting about, but man, there are times when you just come off as a jackass.

That was a lot. Hope you feel better.

I don't recall ever paying much attention to anything you said, so it's an easy decision for me with this.

 

[cezero]

I think we're getting off track here. Ackley is still learning the position and already appears to have good range in the little time that we've seen him out there. What'll be the difference (outside of his hitting) between whether Ackley becomes the everyday center fielder for years to come or whether he makes another position switch, to me, will be how well he takes to learning the ins and outs of the position. Right now, he's learning how to play the position again and, more importantly, how each ballpark plays (best angles to take, best way to play the ball off of the outfield walls, how much and what kind of an effect the wind has on line drives and fly balls, even how fast or slow the outfield grass is in each park and whether it'll come straight to him or snake on him).

He's learning all of that on the fly right now and once he gets a handle on all of that, his defense should improve. If the only question people have about Ackley playing center when it's all said and done is his arm, I'm fine with that. There are things he can do out there to make it less of a liability and I mentioned them above. He may even be given suggestions (legal suggestions) on how to increase his arm strength, now that he's an outfielder, that he can work into his routine in the off-season. I'm honestly not all that worried about having him out there.

I'd rather get a real outfield for 2014. It would be the first time in years. If Ackley somehow fits into that, then okay, though his negative dWAR isn't encouraging, no matter how new he is to the position.

Ackley playing mediocre outfield and hitting well for a couple of months shouldn't change the priority for the FO to address the issue of a truly terrible outfield, both defensively and offensively, which has been a problem for years.

 

[dude82]

I put cezero on my ignore list a while ago. One of the great things about these boards is that you don't have to put up with people that you don't want to put up with. On the ESPN boards, there was a way to put people on an ignore list years ago, but I think that ESPN changed their layout not long after that and the site that originally developed the code to ignore people didn't feel like keeping up with it, so your only recourse in dealing with those people was flagging them and hoping they wouldn't care enough to make a new screen name when they got banned, assuming the mods felt like doing their jobs and actually banned them in the first place. The flag button eventually became about as useless as the call button on an out-of-order elevator.