Nate Silver does the math: SGA is playing like MJ

[msgkings322]

@thunderc please wipe off the screen when you are finished...although this post might present some difficulty for you considering your worship of MJ.

Have we found the new Michael Jordan?

Nikola Jokic is incomparable. And Anthony Edwards looks like MJ. But another player just had a season eerily similar to His Airness.

www.natesilver.net

This is a good article, good evaluations of the MVP race and past MVPs that had stats like MJ and so on.

 

[thunderc]

@thunderc please wipe off the screen when you are finished...although this post might present some difficulty for you considering your worship of MJ.

Have we found the new Michael Jordan?

Nikola Jokic is incomparable. And Anthony Edwards looks like MJ. But another player just had a season eerily similar to His Airness.

www.natesilver.net

This is a good article, good evaluations of the MVP race and past MVPs that had stats like MJ and so on.

I worship no man and only a few women, well maybe more than a few. I saw what I saw and I see what I see. It’s that simple.

 

[ducky]

I like the fact that Ant is getting mentioned sure....

And I havent caught all of OKC's games......

But the two really arent all that comparable at this point. Ant is good at those stats. So is Shai. But what Shai does OUTSIDE of those stats is SO MUCH more than what Ant does right now.

Shai gets more straight up assists. But I bet you he triples Ant in hockey assists.

Not exactly sure how to say it but Shai creates a gravity that Ant just doesnt. A big center when he rolls to the basketball creates gravity even if he never touches the basketball. Shai has gravity like that.

 

[msgkings322]

I worship no man and only a few women, well maybe more than a few. I saw what I saw and I see what I see. It’s that simple.

OK? So any comment on Silver's article? Do you see SGA as comparable to MJ like Silver does?

 

[msgkings322]

I like the fact that Ant is getting mentioned sure....

And I havent caught all of OKC's games......

But the two really arent all that comparable at this point. Ant is good at those stats. So is Shai. But what Shai does OUTSIDE of those stats is SO MUCH more than what Ant does right now.

Shai gets more straight up assists. But I bet you he triples Ant in hockey assists.

Not exactly sure how to say it but Shai creates a gravity that Ant just doesnt. A big center when he rolls to the basketball creates gravity even if he never touches the basketball. Shai has gravity like that.

Indeed and that 'gravity' is part of what Silver is saying I think, MJ of course had that, as does Steph and LeBron and all the other all time greats.

 

[thunderc]

OK? So any comment on Silver's article? Do you see SGA as comparable to MJ like Silver does?

I will read it but there are only 2 players in the league with MJ type moves to get his shot and Shai is one. Antman the other.

 

[msgkings322]

I will read it but there are only 2 players in the league with MJ type moves to get his shot and Shai is one. Antman the other.

I’m genuinely curious what you think

 

[thunderc]

Good article, lot of numbers to back up what we are seeing. He is definitely having a historic season and therefore so is his team. The on court discrepancy is unreal but honestly part of that is being on such a young team. As Jdub continues to develop that won’t hold and that is ok.

 

[msgkings322]

Good article, lot of numbers to back up what we are seeing. He is definitely having a historic season and therefore so is his team. The on court discrepancy is unreal but honestly part of that is being on such a young team. As Jdub continues to develop that won’t hold and that is ok.

I was fascinated by the side by side comparisons of them and the other 'bigger' guards (Kobe, Wade, etc) and by the numbers SGA really does look like he's pretty close to MJ

 

[MAGA2024]

There's a lot of guys today who can/will put up stats comparable/better than Jordan (especially in this Era where the rules heavily favor the Offensive player, and the 3-ball is such an integral part of the game); however how many of these players are just as dominating on the Defensive end (as MJ was) "and" how many are winning Championships year after year (like Jordan)?

I can't think of anyone...

 

[msgkings322]

There's a lot of guys today who can/will put up stats comparable/better than Jordan (especially in this Era where the rules heavily favor the Offensive player, and the 3-ball is such an integral part of the game); however how many of these players are just as dominating on the Defensive end (as MJ was) "and" how many are winning Championships year after year (like Jordan)?

I can't think of anyone...

Increased offense today is a good argument for MJ, he was putting up 30 a night when that was far less easy to do, he was farther ahead of the league than LeBron has been (in scoring). MJ has a very good case for GOAT and that's a big part of it. However, both LeBron and Kareem have very good cases too, for other reasons.

The championships thing is a very weak argument for individual player comparisons, it's a team sport and many all time great players never won a ring, or only won 1 or 2. Yes to be in the GOAT comparison you need rings, and finals MVPs. But Jordan's 6 is not necessarily better than LeBron's 4 in terms of where they rank on these lists. LeBron has far more playoff wins and stats, and vs better opponents.

 

[MAGA2024]

Increased offense today is a good argument for MJ, he was putting up 30 a night when that was far less easy to do, he was farther ahead of the league than LeBron has been (in scoring). MJ has a very good case for GOAT and that's a big part of it. However, both LeBron and Kareem have very good cases too, for other reasons.

The championships thing is a very weak argument for individual player comparisons, it's a team sport and many all time great players never won a ring, or only won 1 or 2. Yes to be in the GOAT comparison you need rings, and finals MVPs. But Jordan's 6 is not necessarily better than LeBron's 4 in terms of where they rank on these lists. LeBron has far more playoff wins and stats, and vs better opponents.

Jordan's Bulls went 6-0 in the Finals (vs. 4-6 for LeBron); Jordan's Bulls defeated more 50 and 60 win opponents in the Playoffs/Finals than LeBron (even though James has played a lot longer); the Bulls went almost literally the entire decade of the 90's without ever losing 3 games in a row when Jordan was on the roster (regular season and playoffs/Finals included); Jordan's Bulls never lost to a lower seed (LeBron has 4 times); Jordan's 96 Bulls are widely regarded as the GOAT team; Jordan's Bulls were never taken to a Game 7 in the Finals (and only twice during their entire run did they even need a Game 7); Jordan's Bulls won 25 of 26 Playoff series' during the 90's, and I could go on and on.... and Jordan did all this with just one (1) All Star teammate by his side.

Yes these are "team" accomplishments, and Jordan was always the undisputed best and most valuable player on his team (you can't say the same about LeBron)... so with respect to Winning and Team Success Jordan has a huge edge over LeBron (and Jabbar).

 

[msgkings322]

Jordan's Bulls went 6-0 in the Finals (vs. 4-6 for LeBron); Jordan's Bulls defeated more 50 and 60 win opponents in the Playoffs/Finals than LeBron (even though James has played a lot longer); the Bulls went almost literally the entire decade of the 90's without ever losing 3 games in a row when Jordan was on the roster (regular season and playoffs/Finals included); Jordan's Bulls never lost to a lower seed (LeBron has 4 times); Jordan's 96 Bulls are widely regarded as the GOAT team; Jordan's Bulls were never taken to a Game 7 in the Finals (and only twice during their entire run did they even need a Game 7); Jordan's Bulls won 25 of 26 Playoff series' during the 90's, and I could go on and on.... and Jordan did all this with just one (1) All Star teammate by his side.

Yes these are "team" accomplishments, and Jordan was always the undisputed best and most valuable player on his team (you can't say the same about LeBron)... so with respect to Winning and Team Success Jordan has a huge edge over LeBron (and Jabbar).

Most of this makes sense but that bit about LeBron not always being the best and most valuable player on his team is absurd. When was he not?

 

[tlance]

Most of this makes sense but that bit about LeBron not always being the best and most valuable player on his team is absurd. When was he not?

Ever since the Luka trade.

That is the only time

 

[msgkings322]

Ever since the Luka trade.

That is the only time

I mean, I guess? Still a dumb comment from that guy, I’d like to hear which teams he’s referring to

 

[tlance]

I mean, I guess? Still a dumb comment from that guy, I’d like to hear which teams he’s referring to

I doubt he meant right now

 

[msgkings322]

I doubt he meant right now

Yes that’s why I want to hear his take

 

[trojanfan12]

Jordan's Bulls went 6-0 in the Finals (vs. 4-6 for LeBron); Jordan's Bulls defeated more 50 and 60 win opponents in the Playoffs/Finals than LeBron (even though James has played a lot longer); the Bulls went almost literally the entire decade of the 90's without ever losing 3 games in a row when Jordan was on the roster (regular season and playoffs/Finals included); Jordan's Bulls never lost to a lower seed (LeBron has 4 times); Jordan's 96 Bulls are widely regarded as the GOAT team; Jordan's Bulls were never taken to a Game 7 in the Finals (and only twice during their entire run did they even need a Game 7); Jordan's Bulls won 25 of 26 Playoff series' during the 90's, and I could go on and on.... and Jordan did all this with just one (1) All Star teammate by his side.

Yes these are "team" accomplishments, and Jordan was always the undisputed best and most valuable player on his team (you can't say the same about LeBron)... so with respect to Winning and Team Success Jordan has a huge edge over LeBron (and Jabbar).

So, what about the years MJ couldn't get his team to the title? He went to 6 finals...Lebron has been to 10.

How many times was MJ's team favored in titles series? How many times was Lebron's team favored?

How many 3-1 deficits did MJ overcome? Lebron overcame a 3-1 deficit in the finals.

How many bad rosters did MJ drag to the finals? Lebron took what was basically a G-League level roster to the finals...his best teammate was Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

If you want to do finals comparisons...how about a little more context?

 

[MAGA2024]

Most of this makes sense but that bit about LeBron not always being the best and most valuable player on his team is absurd. When was he not?

I would argue Anthony Davis was right-there with LeBron in terms of his value / status on the team... also, Luka is clearly the best/most valuable player on this Lakers team... and you could even argue that 2011 Wade was just as good/valuable as James.

 

[MAGA2024]

So, what about the years MJ couldn't get his team to the title? He went to 6 finals...Lebron has been to 10.

How many times was MJ's team favored in titles series? How many times was Lebron's team favored?

How many 3-1 deficits did MJ overcome? Lebron overcame a 3-1 deficit in the finals.

How many bad rosters did MJ drag to the finals? Lebron took what was basically a G-League level roster to the finals...his best teammate was Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

If you want to do finals comparisons...how about a little more context?

Getting to the Finals = finishing in second-place, and that's not the goal. Also, if you look at their respective Conference competition, the East was by far the tougher Conference during Jordan's time, so it was much tougher for him to get "to" the Finals than it was for LeBron:

1985: Lost to Bucks (59-wins / 2 All Stars)
1986: Lost to Celtics (5 HOFERS / 3 All Stars)
1987: Lost to Celtics (5 HOFERS / 3 All Stars)
1988: Lost to Pistons (4 HOFERS / 1 All Star)
1989: Lost to Psitons (4 HOFERS / 1 All Star)
1990: Lost to Pistons (3 HOFERS / 3 All Stars)

5 of those 6 teams reached the Finals, and 3 won the Championship. Needless to say LeBron's road "to" the Finals was much easier... and again, the end goal is to win the Ring, not finished runner-up.

As for being "favored" to win, I'm not sure; however why is it a bad thing to be the undisputed best/most valuable player on the team favored to win it all? If anything that's more of a credit to Jordan's greatness, the fact that he had his Bulls at the top of the mountain for so long, with just one (1) other All NBA teammate (Pippen) by his side. LeBron has played alongside a staggering eight (8) All NBA teammates, to put that in perspective.

Overcoming 3-1 deficits? Again, not sure why that should be a knock against Jordan, the fact that he never allowed his team to face such an uphill battle in a playoff series. Put simply: Jordan won when he was "supposed to" win, and even when he wasn't the higher seed (in 1989, for example, he beat 2 higher seeded teams before losing to the eventual Champion Pistons in the ECF; in 1998 the Jazz had Home Court advantage as the higher seed). Being the undisputed top dog on the best team year after year after year is not a negative, it's the mark of a GOAT.

Leading bad rosters to the Finals? Again, look at the Conference compeition both players faced; the EC was the tougher Conference when Jordan played... that wasn't the case with LeBron. Further, over the past 7 seasons James has played in the (tougher) Western Conference and he made the Finals just 1 time. In fact he failed to make the Playoffs altogether "or" lost in the first-round in 5 of those 7 seasons. Imagine if Jordan played his career in the weaker Conference... I'm guessing he'd have a lot more than 6 Finals appearances as well.

Overall I would give LeBron a slight advantage in quaLity of opponents faced in the Finals; however as I have alluded, how many Finals appearances would he have if he played his entire career in the tougher Conference, like Jordan did? Judging from the past 7 years, not very many.

We'll never know for sure of course, which is why we can only judge the players on what they actually did accomplish, and where/when they fell short of expectations. In that regard LeBron simply doesn't measure up to Jordan.