Your Top 25 MLB Players of All-Time

[BallsOfFurry]

Is this still about Barry Bonds? Love him or hate him, Barry Bonds was a great hitter and he would be in my all-time starting line up. Some people you are not going to get to see the logic.

I've refuted The Logic Of Baseball with simple statistics, I get it.
HRs jumped 69% from 1994 to 2000, then declined again.

 

[Liberal Icon]

Let's cut through the subterfuge with easy to understand facts.

In 1994 the year before PEDs really took off there were 3306 HRs in MLB. At the peak of use in 2000 the number had risen to69 53.
That is a 69 percent increase over 8 seasons.
The rest is smoke, don't get fooled by obtuse manipulations of statistics, this is the picture in black and white.
Cheaters damn near destroyed the record book, we need to reclaim it for those who went about things the right way.

Now if you account for this supposed increase that you arbitrarily used 1994 as your cut-off points even though Baseball supposedly banned steroids use in 1991 how do you account for the other eras that experienced the same peak and valleys?


Culled from Actual Baseball Effects of PEDs

In 1919, Babe Ruth hit 29 home runs (140 games) to break Ned Williamson's 36 year old record of 27 home runs in 1884 with 114 game schedule. In the next year 1920 they expanded the game schedule to 154 from 140 and Ruth hit 54 home runs. Ruth was not only helped by an expanded schedule but also change in baseball. The Coefficient of Restitution (COR) was increased in 1920 helping the ball bounce off the bat in higher velocity. He set his historic mark of 60 in 1927. Does anybody in his right mind believe if the game schedule had stayed at 118 and COR not increased we would have seen the records by Ruth? Every era has its own limitations.

Does it mean Ruth cheated or had an unfair advantage over those before him? Absolutely not unless you go on this revisionist nonsensical partisan take that the so-called steroids era is unique.

 

[Liberal Icon]

I've refuted The Logic Of Baseball with simple statistics, I get it.
HRs jumped 69% from 1994 to 2000, then declined again.

Nope, you've done nothing of the sort.

 

[Liberal Icon]

I've refuted The Logic Of Baseball with simple statistics, I get it.
HRs jumped 69% from 1994 to 2000, then declined again.

Actually you only proved the adage 'Lies. damned lies and statistics."

 

[soxfan1468927]

I did the research, it's undeniable, so, you know, stop denying it.
He has the best ratio between his ERA and the league average ERAof his contemporaries in his career of any pitcher in history and he has the best winning percentage of any 300 game winner in history....winning!!

Not true. Walter Johnson's ERA was 33.6% lower than the league ERA in his career, so was Pedro. Grove was 27.3% lower.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Look dumb fucks, Johnson was a great pitcher. He also pitched most of his career when the MLB leading HR hitter had 14 or so. He never had a top season once power came into the game. His ERA after 1919 was around 3.35.

He led the league in ERA and won MVP in 1924.

 

[StanMarsh51]

He led the league in ERA and won MVP in 1924.

His 1925 was also a great season....

-4th in ERA
-1st in K/BB
-3rd in wins (1 behind the league lead)
-5th in WHIP
-2nd in K's and K/9

And these two seasons (1924-1925) were at 36-37 years old.

 

[soxfan1468927]

The kicker with Bonds is he would have easily made The HOF without the PEDs, but he wouldn't have been the HR record holder, or had the most RBIs, etc.
He stole a lot from greats like Aaron and Ken Griffey Jr, who should be looked at as the best power hitter since Aaron.
Barry and Clemens made their choices and they should never be in The HOF in my opinion.

If we're just talking power, then no he shouldn't. Even if you take out steroids guys.

 

[soxfan1468927]

3 Cy Young's...what a dumbass....

Yeah 3 Cy Youngs with 1 other top 5 finish.

Randy Johnson had 5 Cy Youngs and 4 other top 5 finishes. He had a 12 year peak with an ERA+ of 166, finishing in the top 5 in Cy Young in 9 out of 12 seasons. Koufax had a 6 year peak with an ERA+ of 156 and 4 out of 6 top 5. So how was Koufax a better pitcher than Johnson?

Lefty Grove played before the Cy Young was first awarded, but led the league in ERA while being top 10 in innings pitched in 7 different seasons He was also top 5 in ERA while being top 10 in IP in 4 additional seasons. Something Koufax did just 3 times. He also had a 14 year peak with an ERA+ of 158 compared to Koufax's 6 year peak at 156.

Clayton Kershaw has 3 Cy Youngs and 3 other top 5 finishes. If he retired today would he be the greatest lefty ever?

 

[Clayton]

Actually you only proved the adage 'Lies. damned lies and statistics."

You could always use the eyeball test with Bonds, too.

The fact of the matter is that we're actually a lot more lenient with his PED usage than most which is why he'll never be in the HOF but still showing up in our top 10 in most lists.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Yeah 3 Cy Youngs with 1 other top 5 finish.

Randy Johnson had 5 Cy Youngs and 4 other top 5 finishes. He had a 12 year peak with an ERA+ of 166, finishing in the top 5 in Cy Young in 9 out of 12 seasons. Koufax had a 6 year peak with an ERA+ of 156 and 4 out of 6 top 5. So how was Koufax a better pitcher than Johnson?

Lefty Grove played before the Cy Young was first awarded, but led the league in ERA while being top 10 in innings pitched in 7 different seasons He was also top 5 in ERA while being top 10 in IP in 4 additional seasons. Something Koufax did just 3 times. He also had a 14 year peak with an ERA+ of 158 compared to Koufax's 6 year peak at 156.

Clayton Kershaw has 3 Cy Youngs and 3 other top 5 finishes. If he retired today would he be the greatest lefty ever?

The three Cy Youngs comment was in response to the idiotic comparison the OP made between Bo Jackson and Sandy Koufax. It helps to know what you are commenting on. As to the best ever lefty comment, Koufax retired at 30. Jim Brown in no longer the rushing champ, but he's still the best ever. Michael Jordan isn't the all time NBA scorer, but he's still the best ever. And despite having more rings, your boy Brady still can't hold Montana's jockstrap.

 

[Voltaire26]

Not true. Walter Johnson's ERA was 33.6% lower than the league ERA in his career, so was Pedro. Grove was 27.3% lower.

That is amazing 33.6% ... both? Good stat!!

 

[soxfan1468927]

The three Cy Youngs comment was in response to the idiotic comparison the OP made between Bo Jackson and Sandy Koufax. It helps to know what you are commenting on. As to the best ever lefty comment, Koufax retired at 30. Jim Brown in no longer the rushing champ, but he's still the best ever. Michael Jordan isn't the all time NBA scorer, but he's still the best ever. And despite having more rings, your boy Brady still can't hold Montana's jockstrap.

Yes, he retired at 30 when many other pitchers had better primes that lasted longer. If Clayton Kershaw retired today, would you be a better pitcher?

1. Jim Brown was the all-time leading rusher when he retired and had 9 seasons as the best RB in football. Koufax had 3 as the best pitcher. Huge difference. 9 seasons as the best running back is elite, 3 years as the best pitcher is not.
2. NBA is more than just scoring points though since all players have to play both sides of the ball.
3. Okay. I think those are the top 2 of all-time. I couldn't give a rat's ass if you think Montana was better.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Yes, he retired at 30 when many other pitchers had better primes that lasted longer. If Clayton Kershaw retired today, would you be a better pitcher?

1. Jim Brown was the all-time leading rusher when he retired and had 9 seasons as the best RB in football. Koufax had 3 as the best pitcher. Huge difference. 9 seasons as the best running back is elite, 3 years as the best pitcher is not.
2. NBA is more than just scoring points though since all players have to play both sides of the ball.
3. Okay. I think those are the top 2 of all-time. I couldn't give a rat's ass if you think Montana was better.

It's more like 5 years, at least 4. 5 years of absolute dominance is elite, I don't care what you say lol. And if you think Koufax was something other than elite than you don't have a clue what you are talking about

 

[soxfan1468927]

It's more like 5 years, at least 4. 5 years of absolute dominance is elite, I don't care what you say lol. And if you think Koufax was something other than elite than you don't have a clue what you are talking about

5 years? So even though Bob Gibson had a higher ERA+ in 1962 and 50 more innings pitched, Koufax was still better? He was the best pitcher when he only threw 184 innings, 28th in baseball? And was he really the best pitcher in baseball when he was 14th in innings pitched? 100 innings fewer than Drysdale and an ERA just .44 better? I don't think so. He was the best in 3 seasons.

And did I say he wasn't an elite pitcher? I said he's overrated. And considering people think he's the best pitcher of all-time or the greatest lefty of all-time, yes that's overrating him.

 

[soxfan1468927]

That is amazing 33.6% ... both? Good stat!!

Yes Pedro was more like 33.64, slightly ahead of Johnson. But I figured I would make it easier. Pedro from 1997-2003 is even crazier. 7 year stretch where the average starter in baseball, if you take out Pedro, had a 4.62 ERA. His was 2.20 while playing in a hitter's park.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

5 years? So even though Bob Gibson had a higher ERA+ in 1962 and 50 more innings pitched, Koufax was still better? He was the best pitcher when he only threw 184 innings, 28th in baseball? And was he really the best pitcher in baseball when he was 14th in innings pitched? 100 innings fewer than Drysdale and an ERA just .44 better? I don't think so. He was the best in 3 seasons.

And did I say he wasn't an elite pitcher? I said he's overrated. And considering people think he's the best pitcher of all-time or the greatest lefty of all-time, yes that's overrating him.

I agree that he is over-rated... But I do wonder how you rank the top 10 lefty pitchers of all time...

I actually DO have him ranked higher than Lefty Grove...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I agree that he is over-rated... But I do wonder how you rank the top 10 lefty pitchers of all time...

I actually DO have him ranked higher than Lefty Grove...

Haven't really given much thought to ranking lefties 1-10. Off the top of my head, I know I would have Grove, Johnson, Carlton, and Spahn ahead of him.

Why do you have Grove ahead of him?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Haven't really given much thought to ranking lefties 1-10. Off the top of my head, I know I would have Grove, Johnson, Carlton, and Spahn ahead of him.

Why do you have Grove ahead of him?

the magnitude.. People hate small samples, and I get it, but when a player is so dominant in that small sample then you know they were special...

Grove, I know he had ERA+ seasons better than sandy's best seasons, but I am not a huge adjusted stat fan...

I like to look at walk rates, WHIP and SO rates(as well as other stats), and those 4 dominant seasons by Sandy was better than Grove's best seasons...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I agree that he is over-rated... But I do wonder how you rank the top 10 lefty pitchers of all time...

I actually DO have him ranked higher than Lefty Grove...

And now that I really look at it closer. How is he better than Kershaw? Kershaw from 2011-2016 has a lower ERA than Koufax from 1961-1966, and threw more innings relative to his peers. And, like Koufax, won 3 Cy Youngs.