Would You...

[NWinAZ]

The Randy Johnson trade was a loss for the M's (IMO). Johnson alone had a WAR 20 points higher than the career WAR the three players he was traded for had combined as Mariners.

Also, saying that Guillen and Halama were anything but role players in that 2001 success is sugar coating their efforts. Garcia did lead the AL in ERA, but Johnson's ERA was 0.56 lower than Garcia's in '01 (not to mention that Johnson was 5-1 with an ERA of 1.52 in the playoffs or how that would have changed had he been pitching in Safeco). Although there is no way in knowing how the '01 season would have turned out had Johnson been on the team other than Gracia, Halama & Guillen, but I highly doubt it would have been a negative impact. Besides, who knows how things would have turned out with Griffey and Rodriguez had Johnson not been the first domino to drop.

The M's really don't have a great track record when trading away their best players, and we know exactly how good they are at developing prospects, so I'd say no cause I don't think that the players they are getting back will be as effective as Felix is (even though Felix only participates in 1/5 of the games).

Every piece matters when putting together a 25 man roster. Their roles were just as important. Fact of the matter we improved. No logic can contradict that because it is fact.

What IF Randy stayed? Then playing the maybe game we don't sign Olerud, Boone, Ichiro, ???? and we would be back to a 2 man team with a lot of scrubs. And don't fool yourself with ARod, he was gone from the minute he signed his rookie deal.

 

[NWinAZ]

Sorry NWinAZ, I was a tad tipsy when I responded

Though I still stand by my comments, I don't think you can ever shut the door on trading anyone; a smart GM listens to any offer. My thought process is that for every great trade like the one's you mentioned, theres 5 like the Cliff Lee deal or Bedard deal. We can't hardly live with those ones, imagine living with a Felix one of that magnitude.

All good. I agree our track record with tradings sucks big time. And I would love nothing better than to use Felix as the building block of a dynasty. But we haven't and not sure we ever will. I would rather trade Cano for that group, but that would never happen. Hell, we can't (won't) even sign a freaking FA pitcher in the off season when everyone knows you never have enough pitching. I think we are seeing that right now, but it shouldn't take this to happen to already know it. That was a bonehead move on Jack's part and unfortunately Jack is what runs us.

The Lee deal was a wash. Traded nothing for him, got nothing back for him.

Bedard trade was actually a good trade...except for the fact it was for Bedard. He was never an ace. If it was for Verlander at the time, then we would have had the best 1-2 punch in baseball for 4 years and we never would have been talking about the trade again.

 

[seahawksfan234]

What player coming to Seattle (either young or vet isn't a question mark? Cruz was a question mark if you read all the articles by writers and comments by fans over the winter.

And your 15-23 stat also fails to include one important fact, the players you get in return for him. What was the record when Randy pitched for us? I bet not as high of a winning percentage as it was in 2001 which was led by 3 players we got in that trade.

Again, I love Felix and what he brings in game but one man never carries a team. See when we lost 3 future hall of famers and not just one. We survived that and then some. And if you trade him and the return flops? Would it be any worse than what we have watched for the last decade? No because losing is losing and there is no acceptable difference of a 50 win season and a 80 win season.

The guys we'd be getting in return for him would be prospects.

If we were rebuilding (which we are not), it would be a good trade. For a team that is trying to win now, it's not a good trade.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I totally agree that Felix isn't the problem. He is the answer...IF management was to build around him and add payroll because you are not going to win with 9 prospects or whatever you need to upgrade this mess. No team can do that. And to say the problem is we can't develop hitters, while very much true, doesn't solve any problems. So how do you fix the problem when now is the time to win. We maybe have a 3 year window before what positives we do have start to level off.

Just looking for realistic answers on how to get this ship a sailing towards a championship run.

Perhaps my reading comprehension is failing me and I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but haven't the Mariners built around him and added payroll?

The Mariners spent $240m on Cano, then the next offseason followed that up by spending $57m on Nelson Cruz.

The Mariners payroll has gone from $72m in 2013, to $92m in 2014, to $119m in 2015. An increase of $20m from 2013 to 2014 and an increase of $27m from 2014 to 2015. As much as I hate to defend the Mariners ownership, to say that they're not adding payroll and trying to build around these players would be incorrect.

I'm not going to spend the time researching it, but I'd have to imagine the Mariners have had one of, if not the biggest increase in payroll in MLB from 2013 to 2015.

 

[blstoker]

Every piece matters when putting together a 25 man roster. Their roles were just as important. Fact of the matter we improved. No logic can contradict that because it is fact.

What IF Randy stayed? Then playing the maybe game we don't sign Olerud, Boone, Ichiro, ???? and we would be back to a 2 man team with a lot of scrubs. And don't fool yourself with ARod, he was gone from the minute he signed his rookie deal.

Yes, every piece is important, but that's not to say that the Mariners wouldn't have been able to replace Guillen and Halama (Garcia is more than adequately replaced by Randy), both of which were barely better than replacement level players as Ms.

As for Rodriguez, I understand he is 95% still likely gone. Hell, If Griffey stays (which I don't believe him wanting traded had that much to do with Randy being traded as much as the move to Safeco) then he's still just as likely to become injury prone by 2001 and his career is still all but derailed.

The M's of the late 90s were far from a two man show.

Would the Ms have signed the other players? Who knows. But, I think they go for Ichiro with the Japanese ownership, just my feeling. Brett Boone came in on a 1 year deal that paid a little over $3 million, and I think they still do that deal as well. As for Olerud, well, that really depends, he was brought in in 2000, so Griffey staying wouldn't have changed it, but Johnson may have.

Really, the player who most likely doesn't come to Seattle is Aaron Sele - and if he wasn't there for 2000 & 2001, then who would have been the 5th (and possibly 4th) starter in 2001.

The end of the day is, the Mariners got 116 wins in 2001 - Randy got a ring.

 

[gohusk]

This is really silly

1. Felix is not the problem
2. The M's have picked up Cano and Cruz the last two seasons
3. We're at .500 even with the implosion of the bullpen, Walker pitching like crap, and Iwakuma being injured.

I can't stand this front office but I can't really fault them for how the season started. If someone told me that the problem in the 1st quarter was going to be the bullpen blowing games left and right I would have laughed. The reason they are where they are is because players weren't executing for god knows what reason. And I thought Walker was ready as well because he's nasty when he's on. If he's turned the corner and Iwakuma comes back near his top form then the team is going to be fine.

 

[NWinAZ]

Perhaps my reading comprehension is failing me and I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but haven't the Mariners built around him and added payroll?

The Mariners spent $240m on Cano, then the next offseason followed that up by spending $57m on Nelson Cruz.

The Mariners payroll has gone from $72m in 2013, to $92m in 2014, to $119m in 2015. An increase of $20m from 2013 to 2014 and an increase of $27m from 2014 to 2015. As much as I hate to defend the Mariners ownership, to say that they're not adding payroll and trying to build around these players would be incorrect.

I'm not going to spend the time researching it, but I'd have to imagine the Mariners have had one of, if not the biggest increase in payroll in MLB from 2013 to 2015.

Added payroll via inflation not via stretching the budget. We are still out of the top 10 in payroll where at what time we were top 5. Ranked 12th this year vs 9th in 2010, 9th in 2008, 7th in 2007, 9th 2005, 7th in 2003, 8th in 2002. Don't look at the total amount, look at the ranking. Today's dollar is worth less than past dollar.

 

[NWinAZ]

And the Cano and Cruz debate is meaningless when it comes to spending. Spend more on 2 players, spend less on 22 others. Total spending is what counts when using payroll numbers.

That is the fools argument that Jack wants you to support.

 

[NWinAZ]

One last payroll post; Marlins spent $300M on Stanton, but rank dead last this year at $68.5M. How is that working for them? But they spent $300M.....

 

[NWinAZ]

And thanks for having fun with the Felix question. It always riles up the fanbase. The one big take away I get from it is that the fans that usually goes bonkers over it because we are only getting prospects in return and prospects don't mean nothing are the same fanbase that says to trade 5 prospects for someone else stud and they should take the offer.

In other words, our prospects including Walker are worth pennies on the trading dollar so don't expect any real improvements mid season. Sign the damn free agents in the off season and use prospects as fillers or bonuses. If they contribute, great. If they don't, already covered.

 

[wazzu31]

You can't compare Randy to Felix. Randy wanted out, he hated the front office as opposed to Felix who doesn't. To me they actually got a pretty solid deal back for Randy, had Freddy and Carlos not been hit with the lack of a work ethic bug the franchise wouldn't have dropped off so bad. The biggest problem the Mariners did was they chose ARod over Griffey.

This whole about this proposal debate is just intriguing and it is the problem that we as fans face with the quandary the Mariners have put themselves in. They aren't a team built to win a WS but they also aren't a rebuilding team.

Another note though is that if the deal that Zona proposed were to actually happen that would help the organization with other moves as it would make basically make every prospect expendable in terms of the dredded he is untouchable in a trade.

 

[Banned 10x]

Never said he was the problem. Jr., RJ, Ichiro, nor ARod were the problems either yet they all went away and we formed a more balanced team that won.

As for the uproar, what silences that? Winning.

And for anyone to say 'Just build around them' isn't answering the HOW when we max our spending limit out and we hire incompetent GM's that just want to keep there jobs and not make waves (or good moves)?

After last night can I change my mind?

I'm just kidding... I think...

 

[PolarVortex]

100% hypothetical of course, and M's would never think of doing this nor Felix would ever approve it, but what else do we have to talk about...M's actual games?

Felix to Dodgers

For

Joc Pederson
Corey Seager
Pedro Baez
Alex Guerrero
Young SP Prospect

Love Felix, but team needs more talent and more money to spend (yes they keep themselves from spending).

Yes. I would.
But,
The Dodgers definitely wouldn't.
The Mariners probably wouldn't.

 

[PolarVortex]

100% hypothetical of course, and M's would never think of doing this nor Felix would ever approve it, but what else do we have to talk about...M's actual games?

Felix to Dodgers

For

Joc Pederson
Corey Seager
Pedro Baez
Alex Guerrero
Young SP Prospect

Love Felix, but team needs more talent and more money to spend (yes they keep themselves from spending).

Yes. I would.
But,
The Dodgers definitely wouldn't.
The Mariners probably wouldn't.

 

[cezero]

 

[NWinAZ]

ESPN Stats & Info @ESPNStatsInfo


Joc Pederson now has 3 HR of at least 450 feet since last night!! 450 feet on Monday night, 467 in Game 1 today, and 480 in Game 2 today

 

[NWinAZ]

100% hypothetical of course, and M's would never think of doing this nor Felix would ever approve it, but what else do we have to talk about...M's actual games?

Felix to Dodgers

For

Joc Pederson
Corey Seager
Pedro Baez
Alex Guerrero
Young SP Prospect

Love Felix, but team needs more talent and more money to spend (yes they keep themselves from spending).

Anybody ready to change their vote?

Per ESPN Rumors:

Los Angeles Dodgers: According to Mark Saxon of ESPN Los Angeles, the Dodgers have "set their sights" on trading for an elite starting pitcher in the next month. Names mentioned as being on their wish list are Jordan Zimmermann, Johnny Cueto and David Price.

 

[wazzu31]

I highly doubt the Dodgers would do that deal, maybe give them Paxton/Walker with Haap along with Cano and Rodney.

 

[NWinAZ]

But, but, but prospects aren't valued in trades...oh wait, that is only when we are trading prospects.