Top 32 tournament SS Yount vs Stephens

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Shortstop Bracket is:

1 H Wagner 8
32 N Garciaparra 0

16 PW Reese 3
17 L Boudreau 6

8 B Dahlen 8
25 A Fletcher 1

9 L Appling 8
24 D Bancroft 0

4 G Davis 6 advances on seed
29 O Vizquel 6

13 B Larkin 7
20 J Sewell 0

5 R Yount
28 V Stephens

12 A Trammell
21 J Tinker

3 C Ripken JR
30 T Fernandez

14 E Banks
19 L Aparicio

6 O Smith
27 J Rollins

11 D Jeter
22 B Campaneris

2 A Rodriguez
31 R Peckinpaugh

15 J Cronin
18 J Glasscock

7 B Wallace
26 M Tejada

10 A Vaughan
23 J Fregosi

1 H Wagner
17 L Boudreau

8 B Dahlen
9 L Appling

4 G Davis
13 B Larkin

 

[obxyankeefan]

Robin Yount Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Vern Stephens Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[obxyankeefan]

I would say that Yount is one of the most underrated SS, but there was a certain someone playing in Detroit at the same time. Stephens put up some good power numbers on Boston WS teams of the late 40's, but it still is not enough.

Yount in a landslide.

 

[calsnowskier]

Yount in a landslide.

Not so fast.

You have to ignore Younts post-1984 numbers.

Yount 1974 - 1984 (11 full seasons)
4 120 OPS+ seasons
6 100 OPS+ seasons
3 .350 OBP seasons
6 .400 SLG seasons
2 .300 season
1 MVP (1 top 10)
113 overall OPS+
.331 overall OBP
.427 overall SLG

Stephens from 1942 - 1950 (9 full seasons) - He moved to 3B in '51
5 120 OPS+ seasons
9 100 OPS+ seasons
8 .350 OBP seasons
9 .400 SLG seasons
1 .300 season
6 top 10 MVP
123 overall OPS+
.360 overall OBP
.472 overall SLG.

Stephens in a landslide.

 

[calsnowskier]

I would like to hear some arguments in favor of Yount here, because I just don't see it...

 

[calsnowskier]

I would like to hear some arguments in favor of Yount here, because I just don't see it...

Anyone??

 

[StanMarsh51]

I would like to hear some arguments in favor of Yount here, because I just don't see it...

Pretty close if you look at their WAR...Yount up to the end of 1984 had a WAR of 50, where Stephens up to the end of 1952 had a 43 WAR. I haven't looked into it, but my guess is that the SS field in Yount's time there was weaker than during Stephens' career, which might explain the WAR lead.

OPS+ gives Stephens an advantage for that span, 122 to 113, but it's not a huge lead especially when you consider that Yount was an everyday player at age 18, which hurt his offensive numbers overall.

 

[calsnowskier]

Pretty close if you look at their WAR...Yount up to the end of 1984 had a WAR of 50, where Stephens up to the end of 1952 had a 43 WAR. I haven't looked into it, but my guess is that the SS field in Yount's time there was weaker than during Stephens' career, which might explain the WAR lead.

OPS+ gives Stephens an advantage for that span, 122 to 113, but it's not a huge lead especially when you consider that Yount was an everyday player at age 18, which hurt his offensive numbers overall.

But we are talking SS's, not players, or what could have been. Detracting because Yount played before he was ready (I assume that is what you mean by him playing at 18) really is logical gymnastics. He did what he did.

I don't trust dWAR at all, but they both have similar numbers when looking at their SS numbers in that regard.

Ignoring Yount in the OF and Stephens at 3B, it really is a no-brainer.

 

[StanMarsh51]

But we are talking SS's, not players, or what could have been. Detracting because Yount played before he was ready (I assume that is what you mean by him playing at 18) really is logical gymnastics. He did what he did.

I don't trust dWAR at all, but they both have similar numbers when looking at their SS numbers in that regard.

Ignoring Yount in the OF and Stephens at 3B, it really is a no-brainer.

Yount's still got a better oWAR as a SS, so that works in his favor.

Could go either way imo...

 

[obxyankeefan]

Cal after listening to your arguments, I still lean towards Yount but it is a lot closer than I originally thought.

 

[calsnowskier]

Cal after listening to your arguments, I still lean towards Yount but it is a lot closer than I originally thought.

Gut is a valid argument, so if that is your answer, so be it. But why?

I am not some huge Stephens fan who is homerizing hard here, either. To be honest, I never heard of Stephens before this thread. I just cant help but think that Yount's CF numbers are clouding this debate. The numbers really are not that close.

 

[obxyankeefan]

Stephens had a power advantage.

Young had a speed advantage.

Beyond that it was originally name recognition.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Stephens' numbers during the war years need to be discounted a little I think. Some of his best seasons as a SS came while some of the league's best players and pitchers were otherwise occupied.

 

[calsnowskier]

Stephens' numbers during the war years need to be discounted a little I think. Some of his best seasons as a SS came while some of the league's best players and pitchers were otherwise occupied.

GREAT argument.

 

[Nosferatu]

I got Stephens in this one, I am probably in the minority but I have always thought Yount was a little overrated. Good points about the war years but Stephens best seasons really came after the war. Close but i'm going Stephens.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I got Stephens in this one, I am probably in the minority but I have always thought Yount was a little overrated. Good points about the war years but Stephens best seasons really came after the war. Close but i'm going Stephens.

1944 and 45 are his 3rd and 2nd best WAR seasons

 

[Nosferatu]

1944 and 45 are his 3rd and 2nd best WAR seasons

Go look at his numbers his 1948, 1949, 1950 were arguably his best seasons.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Go look at his numbers his 1948, 1949, 1950 were arguably his best seasons.

His 1948-1950 season numbers were possibly inflated because offense was much higher in those years..

In 1948-1950, run scoring was 16% higher than in 1943-1945, total home runs were 81% higher (not a typo), and the league OPS was 8% higher.

 

[Nosferatu]

His 1948-1950 season numbers were possibly inflated because offense was much higher in those years..

In 1948-1950, run scoring was 16% higher than in 1943-1945, total home runs were 81% higher (not a typo), and the league OPS was 8% higher.

That being said his 1948-1950 seasons are still arguably his best. To your earlier point those numbers might have been up due to many of the top players coming home from the war.

 

[calsnowskier]

From '48 - '50, his OPS+ was 113, 137, 113 respectively. So saying his numbers were just a result of an overall uptick in offence does not matter. He was still doing better that rest of the league, particularly in 1949.