Top 32 tournament LF Rose vs Kiner

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Leftfield Bracket is:

1 B Bonds 5
32 L Brock 1

16 Z Wheat 3
17 S Magee 6

8 M Ramirez 11
25 M Minoso 0

9 T Raines 11
24 J Kelley 0

4 R Henderson 14
29 J Rice 0

13 B Williams 5
20 J Medwick 2

5 C Yastrzemski 7
28 B Veach 0

12 G Goslin 8
21 J Cruz 0

3 T Williams 10
30 R White 0

14 J Burkett 3
19 B Johnson 6

6 P Rose
27 R Kiner

11 F Clarke
22 L Gonzalez

2 S Musial
31 H Manush

15 J Jackson
18 W Stargell

7 E Delahanty
26 J Sheckard

10 A Simmons
23 B Downing

1 B Bonds
17 S Magee

8 M Ramirez
9 T Raines

4 R Henderson
13 B Williams

5 C Yastrzemski
12 G Goslin

3 T Williams
19 B Johnson

 

[obxyankeefan]

Pete Rose Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Ralph Kiner Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[obxyankeefan]

I must have been sleeping when I got to this point in the rankings. I put Jack Clark at 1b instead of the outfield and put Rose in Left instead of 1b.

Anyways the player with the most hits vs one of the best power hitters. IMO Kiner loses points for his fielding, but according to dWAR Rose was actually worse. Kiner loses points for the shortness of his career, but Rose loses points for being an accumulator.

My vote goes to Kiner on this one. Kiner didn't bet on the game and secondly I should have listed Rose at 1B where he wouldn't have gone far.

 

[calsnowskier]

I won't go into too much detail, because I have made the argument ad nauseum. But I am only looking at Rose for '68 - '74, (I am treating all OF positions as the same - lazy, but a shortcut I choose to take).

These seasons, Rose was quite good. He had a 120 OPS+ every year but one, where he had a 118. Kiner, in 12 seasons, had a 120+ 10 times (his bookends were both 116). 8 dominant years vs 12 dominant years. Slight edge to Kiner.

For the purposes of this discussion, I don't think Rose's "problems" have any bearing at all.

Other counting/traditional stats in the years in question (Kiner listed first)

HR - 369/68
2B - 216/251
3B - 39/56
Hits - 1451/1438
PA - 6256/5116
BA - .279/.319
RBI - 1015/399
Runs - 971/752

When you look at these, I think it is clearly Kiner. However, Rose does put up a good fight. They had about the same number of hits despite the fact Kiner had 1100 more PAs. But the HR, RBI and runs scored are not even close.

Kiner was a top-10 MVP 5 times (received votes 2 additional years) vs 4 (+2) for Rose. Rose did win it in '73, though.

While Kiner gets my vote, it is actually closer than I expected going in.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Kiner was much better... Yes, he only played 10 seasons, but those 10 seasons were better than any 10 seasons Rose put up... In fact Kiner's 10 seasons is probably a top 20 player of all time...

 

[UK Cowboy]

Kiner is one of the greatest players ever. Look at his 162 game averages, totally underrated player because of early retirement

 

[MilkSpiller22]

also, Pete Rose's ratio stats are good but nothing elite...