The Shortstop Championship Belt

[ImSmartherThanYou]

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...7385-starting-pitching-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...ussion/108551-catching-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...sion/110615-first-base-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...ion/110619-second-base-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...sion/111460-third-base-championship-belt.html

On to shortstops...
2010-present Troy Tulowitzki
2007-2010 Hanley Ramirez
2005-2007 Derek Jeter
2004-2005 Miguel Tejada
2000-2004 Alex Rodriguez
1999-2000 Derek Jeter
1998-1999 Alex Rodriguez
1997-1998 Nomar Garciaparra
1996-1997 Alex Rodriguez
1992-1996 Barry Larkin
1988-1992 Cal Ripken
1987-1988 Alan Trammell
1983-1987 Cal Ripken
1980-1983 Robin Yount
1977-1980 Garry Templeton
1974-1977 Dave Concepcion
1972-1974 Bert Campaneris
1971-1972 Freddie Patek
1964-1971 Jim Fregosi
1963-1964 Dick Groat
1962-1963 Maury Wills
1955-1962 Ernie Banks
1951-1955 Alvin Dark
1950-1951 Phil Rizzuto
1949-1950 Pee Wee Reese
1947-1949 Lou Boudreau
1946-1947 Johnny Pesky
1945-1946 Vern Stephens
1943-1945 Lou Boudreau
1942-1943 Johnny Pesky
1941-1942 Cecil Travis
1934-1941 Arky Vaughan
1930-1934 Joe Cronin
1927-1930 Travis Jackson
1923-1927 Joe Sewell
1920-1923 Dave Bancroft
1919-1920 Roger Peckinpaugh
1917-1919 Rogers Hornsby
1916-1917 Art Fletcher
1915-1916 Honus Wagner
1913-1915 Art Fletcher
1903-1913 Honus Wagner
1902-1903 George Davis
1901-1902 Bobby Wallace
1899-1901 George Davis
1895-1899 Hughie Jennings
1894-1895 Bill Dahlen
1893-1894 John McGraw
1892-1893 Bill Dahlen
1891-1892 Herman Long
1889-1891 Jack Glasscock
1888-1889 Ed McKean
1887-1888 Monte Ward
1881-1887 Jack Glasscock
1880-1881 Tom Burns
1879-1880 George Wright
1878-1879 Bob Ferguson
1877-1878 John Peters
1871-1877 George Wright

 

[RandomParticles]

Just out of curiosity, what criteria was used? I'm kind of surprised to not see Ozzie Smith on the list. I assume batting is also in play, along with defense, so I can understand Cal beating out Ozzie, but Trammell winning out as short stop "champion" while both Cal and Ozzie were in their primes is a real surprise.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Just out of curiosity, what criteria was used? I'm kind of surprised to not see Ozzie Smith on the list. I assume batting is also in play, along with defense, so I can understand Cal beating out Ozzie, but Trammell winning out as short stop "champion" while both Cal and Ozzie were in their primes is a real surprise.

Read the explanation within the Starting Pitching Championship Belt post.

It's about all-around play, so it's a combination of offense and defense. It's also about track record and maintaining a level of excellence (or in some cases being the best in a weak field).

As for the Trammell mention, his 1987 was absolutely sick, and he was probably the 2nd best SS in the AL to Ripken in 1986 and 1984. So he had an established track record. He was right there with Ripken, then had a much better season in 1987, so he took the crown, only for Ripken to reclaim it once Trammell's performance slipped slightly and Ripken's rebounded.

This isn't meant to be a season-to-season thing, but in some cases, guys will trade back and forth when two all-time greats play during the same time. Ozzie never quite was the best all-around shortstop, though 1985-1987 was definitely his best stretch. Please understand that I'm not one of these mindless goobers who discredits Ozzie because he wasn't a great hitter. Ozzie is an absolute legend in my eyes and has actually become underrated as the years have gone by. He just never held that top spot, or if he did, it was very brief.

 

[RandomParticles]

Cool beans. Was just curious. Figured it was something like that. Just didn't really realize that Trammell was that close. Definitely adds fire to the "why isn't Alan Trammell in the HoF" fire, no?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Cool beans. Was just curious. Figured it was something like that. Just didn't really realize that Trammell was that close. Definitely adds fire to the "why isn't Alan Trammell in the HoF" fire, no?

Trammell along with his double play partner Whitaker I'd argue are HOF snubs...both very underrated careers.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Cool beans. Was just curious. Figured it was something like that. Just didn't really realize that Trammell was that close. Definitely adds fire to the "why isn't Alan Trammell in the HoF" fire, no?

It's a travesty how little support he gets (an even bigger travesty that Whitaker fell off the ballot after one year) when he should be a shoo-in. The 1980s was an historic era for shortstops in baseball, with Ripken, Smith, Yount & Trammell, and even Tony Fernandez, who wasn't a HOFer, but was really, really great for about a 6-year stretch.

 

[gunnarthor]

Ernie Banks stopped playing short in 1961 so he shouldn't have the belt in 1962. And maybe I'm just not reading your years right.

1999-2000 Derek Jeter
1998-1999 Alex Rodriguez
1997-1998 Nomar Garciaparra

Does this mean that Nomar held the belt in both 97 and 98? And in 98 he and ARod shared it? And in 99 Arod and Jeter shared it, etc? Or is it one year? In which case wouldn't it make more sense to just write
1999-2000 Derek Jeter
1998-Alex Rodriguez
1997-Nomar Garciaparra

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Ernie Banks stopped playing short in 1961 so he shouldn't have the belt in 1962. And maybe I'm just not reading your years right.

1999-2000 Derek Jeter
1998-1999 Alex Rodriguez
1997-1998 Nomar Garciaparra

Does this mean that Nomar held the belt in both 97 and 98? And in 98 he and ARod shared it? And in 99 Arod and Jeter shared it, etc? Or is it one year? In which case wouldn't it make more sense to just write
1999-2000 Derek Jeter
1998-Alex Rodriguez
1997-Nomar Garciaparra

People seem to take the dates way too literally. Ernie Banks held the belt at the end of the 1961 season. He didn't lose the belt until he actually changed positions, which was in the 1962 season. So he carried the belt into 1962. Basically if the guy holds the belt at the end of one season, he carries it into the next season, because the position change doesn't go into effect until he actually plays games at said position.

Basically, the "end year" of a reign just signifies that the guy finished the previous year as the titleholder and then the subsequent guy gained the title during the season of the "start year".

For the Nomar example, it means he carried the belt into 1998 after his incredible 1997 season, but then A-Rod won the title back over the course of the 1998 season. They did not share it.

 

[gunnarthor]

People seem to take the dates way too literally. Ernie Banks held the belt at the end of the 1961 season. He didn't lose the belt until he actually changed positions, which was in the 1962 season. So he carried the belt into 1962. Basically if the guy holds the belt at the end of one season, he carries it into the next season, because the position change doesn't go into effect until he actually plays games at said position.

Basically, the "end year" of a reign just signifies that the guy finished the previous year as the titleholder and then the subsequent guy gained the title during the season of the "start year".

For the Nomar example, it means he carried the belt into 1998 after his incredible 1997 season, but then A-Rod won the title back over the course of the 1998 season. They did not share it.

Well if that's the case, I think Ron Hansen 63-65 and Zolio Versalles 65-66 had the belt before Fergusi finally took it in 66.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Well if that's the case, I think Ron Hansen 63-65 and Zolio Versalles 65-66 had the belt before Fergusi finally took it in 66.

That's fair, but I disagree. By my estimation, Fregosi was the 2nd best SS in 1963, so he was building his rep. Then, he was the best SS in 1964, so he took the crown. Then, he was 2nd best in 1965. Versalles was the best SS that year, but didn't have a strong enough track record. Then, in 66, Fregosi was the 3rd best SS behind McCauliffe and Alley, neither of whom had strong track records to that point.

So if a guy goes
2nd
1st
2nd
3rd
1st
2nd
2nd
1st

He's the champ from that first "1st" to the last "1st" unless the gaps are filled in by someone with enough track record to unseat him. That wasn't the case here, in my opinion.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Hanley hasn't been unseated just yet... He greatly improved his defense this year.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Hanley hasn't been unseated just yet... He greatly improved his defense this year.

I'd certainly say Tulowitzki has outperformed Hanley the past 3 years overall

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Hanley hasn't been unseated just yet... He greatly improved his defense this year.

Seriously???? Tulowitzki has been much better overall for the last several years. Not to mention Hanley played 3B last year, so that automatically would have ended his reign. But regardless, Tulowitzki has been clearly better for a while now.

 

[1905 Giants]

Got at least 4 possible HOFers on this list: Dahlen (hey it could happen), Garciaparra (ditto), Jeter, and Trammell.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Seriously???? Tulowitzki has been much better overall for the last several years. Not to mention Hanley played 3B last year, so that automatically would have ended his reign. But regardless, Tulowitzki has been clearly better for a while now.

He played 3b for a short time. I should have said Hanley should be top dog right now, the past 3 years have been Tulo but I didn't check how often he was injured in that span, since I know he was out for at least a year during that time.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Tulo over Hanley hands down.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Got at least 4 possible HOFers on this list: Dahlen (hey it could happen), Garciaparra (ditto), Jeter, and Trammell.

Nomar might hang around the ballot for a few years, but I don't see him having much of a chance of making it, and he certainly doesn't deserve to. He's the shortstop equivalent of Mattingly.

The other three are definitely worthy.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

He played 3b for a short time. I should have said Hanley should be top dog right now, the past 3 years have been Tulo but I didn't check how often he was injured in that span, since I know he was out for at least a year during that time.

He didn't play it for a short time, he played it for the majority of the season. Not to mention he mediocre at best last year and downright awful the year before.

Hanley is having an incredible year, but it's a partial season and Tulo has been his usual dominant self. It's Tulo by a wide margin.

 

[1905 Giants]

Nomar might hang around the ballot for a few years, but I don't see him having much of a chance of making it, and he certainly doesn't deserve to. He's the shortstop equivalent of Mattingly.

The other three are definitely worthy.

Not saying Garciaparra should make it, but I have a gut feeling.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

He didn't play it for a short time, he played it for the majority of the season. Not to mention he mediocre at best last year and downright awful the year before.

Hanley is having an incredible year, but it's a partial season and Tulo has been his usual dominant self. It's Tulo by a wide margin.

Tulo only played 47 games in 2012. You're right, I was only thinking about how long he played 3b with the Dodgers. With the Dodgers, Hanley drove in almost as many runs as games played last year, which was why I was crossing my fingers hoping he'd stay healthy this year after his injury in the WBC.

We're all entitled to our opinion, I was just clarifying my terrible choice of words.