Series Thread: The Royal Court series - Golden Knights vs. Kings

[Sgt Brutus]

Getting swept by a first year team

 

[forty_three]

Getting swept by a first year team

Don't know if I'd call the Kuh-niggits a traditional first year team. The rules that governed this expansion draft means the team got the kind of talent an expansion team wouldn't expect to have until year five or six.

Still, it is fun seeing the Kings getting swept because Fuck Jeff Carter.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Don't know if I'd call the Kuh-niggits a traditional first year team. The rules that governed this expansion draft means the team got the kind of talent an expansion team wouldn't expect to have until year five or six.

Still, it is fun seeing the Kings getting swept because Fuck Jeff Carter.

Eh. If certain teams (FLA, CBJ in particular) hadn't complicated themselves out of good players and if the Pens hadn't had two good goalies (although MAF has played far, far better than I expected him too) they'd probably be junk.

If the extent of the good players they had gotten had been Perron and Neal with a few good d-men to boot and an average goalie, they're not a playoff team. Other GM's did far more for McPhee than the expansion draft rules did.

 

[forty_three]

Eh. If certain teams (FLA, CBJ in particular) hadn't complicated themselves out of good players and if the Pens hadn't had two good goalies (although MAF has played far, far better than I expected him too) they'd probably be junk.

If the extent of the good players they had gotten had been Perron and Neal with a few good d-men to boot and an average goalie, they're not a playoff team. Other GM's did far more for McPhee than the expansion draft rules did.

But the rules in 2000 allowed teams to protect 14 skaters and a goalie. The rules this year allowed at most 10 skaters and a goalie.

With 4 extra slots to protect players, the CBJ would have had no problem holding on to Anderson and Karlsson and not needed to make any deal. Same with Florida. Without Marchessault and Karlsson, the Knights have 70 fewer goals this year. Pens could have kept Fleury also (had they wanted to). The rule was 2 goalies and 10 skaters.

And in their expansion year, the Jackets got 3 players in exchange for not selecting certain players. They Got Jean-Luc Grand Pierre and two guys who never played for them. The deal to get rid of Clarkson's contract looks a LOT different if the Jackets could hold 14 skaters, if it happens at all. In fact, it starts to look like a cap floor deal for Vegas if every team can hold 14. Perhaps an advantageous situation for the Jackets. The rules were very favorable to the Knights and put the rest of the teams into difficult positions that no one has ever had to deal with before.

Realistically, who would the Leafs have lost if they could hold four more players?

I think the best they get from Columbus is Calvert or Tynan. Maybe Gagner who was UFA.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

But the rules in 2000 allowed teams to protect 14 skaters and a goalie. The rules this year allowed at most 10 skaters and a goalie.

With 4 extra slots to protect players, the CBJ would have had no problem holding on to Anderson and Karlsson and not needed to make any deal. Same with Florida. Without Marchessault and Karlsson, the Knights have 70 fewer goals this year. Pens could have kept Fleury also (had they wanted to). The rule was 2 goalies and 10 skaters.

And in their expansion year, the Jackets got 3 players in exchange for not selecting certain players. They Got Jean-Luc Grand Pierre and two guys who never played for them. The deal to get rid of Clarkson's contract looks a LOT different if the Jackets could hold 14 skaters, if it happens at all. In fact, it starts to look like a cap floor deal for Vegas if every team can hold 14. Perhaps an advantageous situation for the Jackets. The rules were very favorable to the Knights and put the rest of the teams into difficult positions that no one has ever had to deal with before.

Realistically, who would the Leafs have lost if they could hold four more players?

I think the best they get from Columbus is Calvert or Tynan. Maybe Gagner who was UFA.

Leafs didn't lose anybody worth a shit. I think it was Seth Griffith.

I never said they wouldn't be significantly weaker under the old rules, just that the GM's gamed themselves into making themselves much better than they should've been by unnecessarily wheeling and dealing when they should've just nutted up and accepted whatever was coming. They overthought the problem and Vegas reaped the rewards (keep in mind their farm is already not horrible, either). I doubt we see Seattle with anything resembling as competitive a team in a few years.

 

[BGDave]

Leafs didn't lose anybody worth a shit. I think it was Seth Griffith.

I never said they wouldn't be significantly weaker under the old rules, just that the GM's gamed themselves into making themselves much better than they should've been by unnecessarily wheeling and dealing when they should've just nutted up and accepted whatever was coming. They overthought the problem and Vegas reaped the rewards (keep in mind their farm is already not horrible, either). I doubt we see Seattle with anything resembling as competitive a team in a few years.

It was Leipsic, since traded to VCR

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

It was Leipsic, since traded to VCR

Right. "Worse Leivo".

/I think they protected Matt Martin lol

 

[forty_three]

Leafs didn't lose anybody worth a shit. I think it was Seth Griffith.

I never said they wouldn't be significantly weaker under the old rules, just that the GM's gamed themselves into making themselves much better than they should've been by unnecessarily wheeling and dealing when they should've just nutted up and accepted whatever was coming. They overthought the problem and Vegas reaped the rewards (keep in mind their farm is already not horrible, either). I doubt we see Seattle with anything resembling as competitive a team in a few years.

I don't think we're disagreeing a lot here. But I feel like Jarmo wouldn't have been as anxious to make the silly deal if he knew he could protect Anderson. He let Karlsson go in order to hold onto Anderson. If he wasn't in a position to lose either, no deal comes. Vegas gets Calvert and Karlsson's 43 goals become 16 on Columbus' 4th line .

The wheeling and dealing was sort of necessary under these rules, it wasn't just shooting themselves in the foot in order to do it. Young teams with players under good contracts were really at risk. And the next one will be worse for us. Because we won't have the first year pro clause to protect Bjorkstrand, Werenski and Nutivaara.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't think we're disagreeing a lot here. But I feel like Jarmo wouldn't have been as anxious to make the silly deal if he knew he could protect Anderson. He let Karlsson go in order to hold onto Anderson. If he wasn't in a position to lose either, no deal comes. Vegas gets Calvert and Karlsson's 43 goals become 16 on Columbus' 4th line .

The wheeling and dealing was sort of necessary under these rules, it wasn't just shooting themselves in the foot in order to do it. Young teams with players under good contracts were really at risk. And the next one will be worse for us. Because we won't have the first year pro clause to protect Bjorkstrand, Werenski and Nutivaara.

I've never really understood what CBJ did. They protected Boone Jenner but they were worried about Josh Anderson so they traded a first round pick so Vegas would pick William Karlsson. I know they were worried about losing Korpisalo but they're probably going to wind up trading him for a 2nd round pick at some point anyway (unless Bobrov tanks it next year, of course, but fat chance).

Of course, like you said, there's no guarantee that Karlsson scores like he did for CBJ this year and in all likelihood doesn't (and in all likelihood he will regress next year because a 23% shooting percentage is hard to maintain) but even if he remained the player he was before what the hell is the point of all that? They could've just stood pat, let Vegas take whoever was available, and move on. Their team right now wouldn't be any worse-off for it (if anything it would be in a better position) and unless Vegas always had Karlsson at the top of their board anyway they're missing one of their best players this year and probably don't win the division.

It was precisely that anxiousness that Jarmo (and other GMs - not picking solely on CBJ here it's just that their move looks particularly bad in hindsight given how good Karlsson's been) had that was the problem with this draft more than the format of it. Seattle will get good players, no doubt. From your team, almost assuredly from mine, from a lot of them. But they won't get 5 or 6 first round picks for laying off bottom 6 players and backup goalies and they'll probably be in a better position to fuck up picks.

Unless Dale Tallon's still in a job.

 

[forty_three]

so they traded a first round pick so Vegas would pick William Karlsson.

I think the first rounder was the incentive so Vegas would take the Clarkson contract. They added a second in order for them to lay off Anderson and Korpi.

Hindsight makes it look a lot worse than it was.

And it will be way better than what happens in the Seattle draft.

 

[puckhead]

Don't know if I'd call the Kuh-niggits a traditional first year team. The rules that governed this expansion draft means the team got the kind of talent an expansion team wouldn't expect to have until year five or six.

Still, it is fun seeing the Kings getting swept because Fuck Jeff Carter.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought Vegas on paper looked like a dog's breakfast
especially on D

 

[BGDave]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought Vegas on paper looked like a dog's breakfast
especially on D

Right there with you.