The A-Rod poll

[chico ruiz]

i appreciate your response 1507. and i believe you, as it applies to the late 70's and early 80's. but, if it had been the late 90's when you were coming up it may be a different story you tell. less risk and greater reward. i was asking you to take yourself outside of your particular chronological sphere. not to bait you or question your ethics, but to generate a conversation about everyone's culpability, not just selig's. i mentioned to you once how jim kaat, in a moment of absolute clarity said, if the modern ped's were available during his playing days, he would have done them. if somebody had told me when i was playing in babe ruth league and high school that my chances of getting drafted were going to increase exponentially if i did a particular ped (that wouldn't harm my long term health) i would have probably done it. so, the amount of players who have, and are using, is probably staggering. as you yourself have pointed out several times. put yourself in selig's shoes under those circumstances. a clean sweep shuts baseball down for a long time, and mlpa goes crazy and hires 1000 lawyers like it's goldman sachs. the owners fire him. just look at the legal wrangling that has gone on leading up to the a-rod suspension. btw, the yankees have the best lawyers. this is what it is really all about. who gets the money, and how much. and john is right. it is a cultural simulacrum. wall street bundled mortgages and called them securities. they bought credit default swaps to cover them. aig sold them knowing full well they couldn't cover more than 2% of them. synthetic CDO's? borrowing money on borrowed money which was borrowed. we were complacent and complicit then, and we still are. same with peds. let's be honest about who we are. it's a good place to start.

 

[JohnU]

I do know that after this current PED's spectacle passes and MLB gives the illusion that it has cleaned up the game, it will wag a finger at everybody and warn them, "You get caught and this will happen to you."

That worked with the Black Sox. Pete Rose didn't read that part of the baseball history he espouses to admire.

Here's the rub on which PED I'd take to help me through the maze. The first question would NOT be "Is this going to hurt me long-run?" Hell, I smoked for 40 years. Long-run ... nah, I could get hit by a bus. I won't ever die or be unable to plop her down and bang her brains out.

I go to the doctor now and only hear the part of the conversation that I want to hear, so even if the doc told me that a PED would make my nuts turn into raisins, I'd say ... "When will that happen?" He'd shrug and I'd think, "he doesn't know so he's fuckin' making this all up."

Players will continue to look for ways to get through the maze and MLB is already a mile short and two miles off course.

The new generation of enhancers is already out there. What is it? I have no clue.
But a guy earning $12 million or more to play a sport isn't waiting around for me to tell him. These guys are looking for ways to make $120 million. They will spend it, somebody will take it and some lab in Tucumcari will be happy to build it in a test tube.

Is it cheating? Not if you don't get caught. If you do, blame the process. Lawyers get rich all the same. The only losers are ... well, there is no real losers, is there?

 

[Redsfan1507]

Chico,

In honest. That might be part if why I'm not rich, but it is what it is. I believe you come in naked and alone, and leave the same way, and in between, you gotta look that guy in the mirror every day.

I've coached several guys that I suspected, but never saw or knew. I did have conversations about PEDs with (ametuers) them and I spoke about having a good plan B ( life after baseball), and the odds if injury and success being against them. I never believed in short cuts to success if ethics or risk assessment didn't jive. It's a personal choice, like so many others in life. You have to be ok with you, and be ok with the reprocussions of those choices that make you what you are.

I guess that means, I wouldn't choose to be A-Rod, regardless of the money, or at a lower level, I'd get cut and wind up where I wound up anyway. I loved the game, and still do. I hate where it's been perverted to. There was and is pressure to cheat to compete, but it's mainly pressure by cheaters and those that support them. Unfortunately, I think the people writing the checks are in that group. It's why is like to hold Selig and owners accountable too. You can't usually litigate morality, laws and rules are more to litigate those who don't follow them...people with ethics and morals would follow the intent, without them.

 

[eburg5000]

What about all the players that didn't take PEDs. They are a lot more that didn't than did. I already read where Dan Meyer was pissed because he got beat out by Bastista who did PEDs.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Depends. I don't think there were many MLB players NOT using some form if PED in the early 2000's. Used to be, a coach that complained about a players dedication by saying he doesn't want to do what it takes, he meant they guy gained weight in the winter, or didn't want to take extra BP or infield practice in season. It might have been suggested in more recent times that requirements for acceptable "strength and conditioning" would "pressure" players to get PED help.

If you are the only guy in the locker room not benching 275 lbs, it might be a sign your name on the uni isn't sewed on real well on purpose. Besides, they dont just sign 18 tear olds and put them on the bus clueless...they spell it ALL out for you- heres the contract-get an agent- here's a list. Your salary is less laundry and apartment split- here's your roomates. Heres team rules, and your explanation of insurance. Need a loan- heres some references. People also get the REQUIRED gambling, PED and STD warning, not necessarily in that order.

But they also took a page from the NFL PED play book when they started putting "strength and conditioning" personnel in the team baseball photo like pitching coaches. I never saw one that wasn't a roider. Bryan Price was a low ball pitcher, now a low ball instructor. Ditto with Soto and the fastball/change up. Dusty hit homers, and Brook Jacoby, well, didn't hit that well...The clubhouse guy handles your locker, and all the stuff in it...and the S&C guy isn't just showing them how to change weights and work the stationary bike.

I do believe people are paying more attention to PED testing. It may explain the sudden trend back to more injuries, and in struggling offenses. Any conditioning expert will tell you though, that you can gain bulk, size and strength, stop working out for a time, and still get back quicker than a guy that never did it. Muscle memory. That said, once a roider, easier to get back than a guy that never roided.

I think most all of them have, and if they don't TRULY police, they all will again.

 

[eburg5000]

I remember playing soft ball in my 20's and 30's. I played on the average 2 games a week some times more. I was in pretty good shape. I was a runner, always doing something to get in better shape. (for all the good it does me now) But I remember after that, one or two games a week how much it took out of me. I was sore had bumps and bruises. I thought how would I feel if I played 6 or 7 games a week, and all that travel for 7 months in a season. It must be really hard to keep that energy level, and be on the field for all those games.

 

[Redsfan1507]

It's a grind. Everyone is ate up with bruises, cuts, abrasions, muscle pulls, and general soreness. Catchers and middle infielders are the worst, but even in grass, just about everyone that dives or slides gets a "tat" from it. People get bad hops in infield practice, and catching on the side. They do get colds and stomach flu and migraines and toothaches like everyone else too. It's part of why they pay them so much. It's probably easy to rub on sone cream not called Icy Hot, or swallow a pill. Quicker than heat and ice and time gritting your teeth I guess.

 

[JohnU]

We also tend to think that lots of money and stardom will replace the standard "life" issues that people have.

I recall once, talking to Bill Melton when he was a player with the White Sox, telling me how his daughter had fallen though a plate glass window back in California and he had to play a game that night in Chicago worried stiff about the kid, who wasn't badly hurt -- but all the same, it was his daughter and he couldn't be there.

 

[Redsfan1507]

There are other issues. Ask Corky Millers wife. Most pro players aren't bonus babies with lots of loot- the (minor league) pay isn't great considering your aren't home for almost half the year, or hardly at all if you don't live where your home team is located. Hard to fly family all over the country on that salary. Hard to raise kids or romance the wife on the phone. I knew a guy that got bit by the family dog that didn't know him when he came home.

 

[JohnU]

Speaking of PED's ... Bartolo Colon isn't getting older, he's just not in the crosshairs this time.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Already served his suspension..and isn't owed $90mil.

What a coincidence.

If my suspicions about global knowledge of PEDs going back to before Congress started demanding MLB do something about them, it's only a matter of time before someone besides Jose Canseco starts spilling the beans about MLB's full knowledge, and implicates owners and MLB brass in a "conspiracy of silence" or "dont ask, dont tell...and posdibly, dont test much".

Like Canseco, it takes someone with little to lose to do that. A-Rods still trying to get paid, but his appeal goes to the same entities that handed out the suspension, right ? Doubtful he'll win if that's the case, especially since Selig can invoke "best interests of baseball" powers if he chooses to. I think there is near ZERO probability the MLBPA strikes over this...would be a PR nightmare, and could be a death sentance for the PA, or even baseball if they did...

 

[JohnU]

The impartials doing the MLB.tv version were quick to point out that Colon's fastball has been losing some steam over the length of the season. Gotta wonder if maybe the big guy hasn't got the juice left. Hell, he's 40-something. If the A's anchored their hopes to him, they probably should have been making a deal.

 

[Redsfan1507]

What are they paying him ?

That's a pretty good indication of what they expected from him, and how long they'll suffer with him. The A's haven't had a lot of trouble finding decent pitching in that big park.