cooley says qb competition will be a sham ?

[Lonewate44]

My guess is scot believes, just like mike s. and a whole slew before him, that he will be given complete autonomy to build this team. I'll bet even dan belives he WANTS to give him autonomy. The issue is that Dan has proven he can't keep out and let those he hired do their job. He can't help himself. Do you belive that dan was involved in the shanahan/RG3 issue?

As for what is it goi g to take for me to believe dan won't meddle? I did say above. I have to actually see it. Him, or anyone in the FO just saying it doesn't do it for me anymore. His track record dictates that.

I liken the situation to Angelos off the Orioles. For 20 years he meddled. It wasn't until the last few years he finally let loose a bit and his team improved. I think Dan wants a winner, he just suffers from the smartest guy in the room syndrome as we'll as I think he gets a bit of a woody hanging around these great athletes.

Well Mike had an IRON clad contract that HE was in charge of the Draft...the Team etc.....He could have and I sure he would have quit when RGIII was drafted and taken the last 3 years of his contract and taken the money and ran.... Do I believe dan had some influence on the decesion....Yes.......Do I think Dan MADE him make the trade and draft RGIII... Nope.....Shannahan would have walked, and any arbitrator would have given his money for breach of contract............

I am of the belief that Mike struggled before RGIII got there, and he was willing to do what he had to do in order to change his fortunes in DC...I believe Mike was under the impression that between him and his son, they could make RGIII a pocket passer down the line....Mike NEEDED a franchisE QB..He didnt want his legacy tarnished

 

[j_y19]

Well Mike had an IRON clad contract that HE was in charge of the Draft...the Team etc.....He could have and I sure he would have quit when RGIII was drafted and taken the last 3 years of his contract and taken the money and ran.... Do I believe dan had some influence on the decesion....Yes.......Do I think Dan MADE him make the trade and draft RGIII... Nope.....Shannahan would have walked, and any arbitrator would have given his money for breach of contract............

I am of the belief that Mike struggled before RGIII got there, and he was willing to do what he had to do in order to change his fortunes in DC...I believe Mike was under the impression that between him and his son, they could make RGIII a pocket passer down the line....Mike NEEDED a franchisE QB..He didnt want his legacy tarnished

I actually agree with you on the decision to draft Robert. I was referring to once robert was here, do you think dan meddled in any way either by setting Robert up above the rest, making a difficult locker room and coaching environment or by "encouraging" mike to play Robert before robert was ready at the beginning of his second season?

 

[Lonewate44]

I actually agree with you on the decision to draft Robert. I was referring to once robert was here, do you think dan meddled in any way either by setting Robert up above the rest, making a difficult locker room and coaching environment or by "encouraging" mike to play Robert before robert was ready at the beginning of his second season?

Yes, I believe the Dan could have been and probably was pushing for it for sure....But ULTAMITAELY...The Coach says who plays or doesnt play........

And I do believe he could have put him over the rest of the team...but lets be real....A Franchise QB is the top dog on the team, and Im sure people Like Brady, Mannigns, Bress etc...have the elevated status as well with their owners........

At the time we had a Guy coming off the most impressive rookie season for a QB ever, Well on his way to franchise Qb..Legendary status..........now.....not so much...but then...yes.....

 

[j_y19]

Ok. First, this isn't about Shanahan. He got what he deserved. This is about why I don't trust Snyder. By your own admission, he meddled with shanahan who supposedly has complete autonomy. So why should I believe he won't meddle with Scot?

Second, while the mannings, and Brady's of the world may get special treatment, he is not in their caliber, not even after his rookie season. You can't see how that might alienate some teammates and coaches?

 

[Lonewate44]

Ok. First, this isn't about Shanahan. He got what he deserved. This is about why I don't trust Snyder. By your own admission, he meddled with shanahan who supposedly has complete autonomy. So why should I believe he won't meddle with Scot?

Second, while the mannings, and Brady's of the world may get special treatment, he is not in their caliber, not even after his rookie season. You can't see how that might alienate some teammates and coaches?

Well....RGIII was the new Saviour by taking a BAD team and carrying them to the playoffs, and a BIG lead before he got hurt.......This was Something entirly new to Danny boy....so...I can see him wanting to treat his franchise QB like the other owners do......

I never said he meddeled...I said he could have.....may have...but there has NEVER been any proof that he did........

I choose to believe that Scot.....while listeneing to the owner...will do what he thinks is best for the team.....for his own ego......He didnt come to have Danny destory his rep......He by contract has full power to run the show...if dan does try meddeling to much..he can say...get the fuck out......Im in chrage...you dont like it...fire me and I will take the buyout and go.....until that time...i dont care what you think or want......

But maybe its the optomist in me.....dan has finally hit rock bottom..is embarrased, and pissed at the product on the field...and for the first time...Hired a REAL GM and let him set up the F/O....Im sure more F/O changes come after the draft......with age comes wisdom....

 

[j_y19]

Well....RGIII was the new Saviour by taking a BAD team and carrying them to the playoffs, and a BIG lead before he got hurt.......This was Something entirly new to Danny boy....so...I can see him wanting to treat his franchise QB like the other owners do......

I never said he meddeled...I said he could have.....may have...but there has NEVER been any proof that he did........

I choose to believe that Scot.....while listeneing to the owner...will do what he thinks is best for the team.....for his own ego......He didnt come to have Danny destory his rep......He by contract has full power to run the show...if dan does try meddeling to much..he can say...get the fuck out......Im in chrage...you dont like it...fire me and I will take the buyout and go.....until that time...i dont care what you think or want......

But maybe its the optomist in me.....dan has finally hit rock bottom..is embarrased, and pissed at the product on the field...and for the first time...Hired a REAL GM and let him set up the F/O....Im sure more F/O changes come after the draft......with age comes wisdom....

All I can say is I hope you are right and my instincts are wrong. I will gladly eat crow.

 

[skinsdad62]

What evidence did he present?

i presented evidence

 

[skinsdad62]

My guess is scot believes, just like mike s. and a whole slew before him, that he will be given complete autonomy to build this team. I'll bet even dan belives he WANTS to give him autonomy. The issue is that Dan has proven he can't keep out and let those he hired do their job. He can't help himself. Do you belive that dan was involved in the shanahan/RG3 issue?

As for what is it goi g to take for me to believe dan won't meddle? I did say above. I have to actually see it. Him, or anyone in the FO just saying it doesn't do it for me anymore. His track record dictates that.

I liken the situation to Angelos off the Orioles. For 20 years he meddled. It wasn't until the last few years he finally let loose a bit and his team improved. I think Dan wants a winner, he just suffers from the smartest guy in the room syndrome as we'll as I think he gets a bit of a woody hanging around these great athletes.

j-y19 if you expect that ANY owner isnt going to chime in about a player he likes etc then you are living in the land of theory and not reality .

All owners meddle some , why own a team if you cant ?

so what do you call meddling ? forcing the GM/HC to pick and play guys you want exclusively ? that is meddling . going down to the field , calling down to the HC during a game suggesting plays, is meddling

advising on acquiring a player and allowing the HC/GM to make the call backing or not backing your advice is not

the owner made some mistakes with RG3 and what he allowed however both shanny and gruden benched him for poor play . i dont see a meddler allowing that treatment of his boy

as has been said numerous times shanny had final say in his contract . bottom line is he made the call. if he was intimidated (which i doubt ) the its on him

joe gibbs had final say . he would still be HC if he wanted too

steve spurrieur had final say . his system failed but snyder wasnt pounding the table for patrick ramsey

zorn was a puppet and basically got the job by default

shottenhiemer was a huge victim of owner interference

again i get that you are shell shocked and dont have the ability to get up and shake it off and allow that he could have changed.

but i see no downside of believing he has . none what so ever because i really dont suffer to much if we lose . i am not jumping off a mental cliff

the worst that happens to me is i am called a fool for believing . thats it , being called a fool by someone i havent met on the internet .

well i have way more fortitude then that to sweat that foolishness one bit

i have and can eat all the crow anyone wants but i will still get back up and keep on tapping

you dont have to trust danny . you and others can be right yet again but i know what we will be in store for . 3-5 more years of misery until we right this ship the way it needs to be

i have us down for 4 -6 wins next season no matter how good we draft / sign fa's coach whatever because we have a long ways to go before we can field a year in and year out playoff contender

if its faster then great i will be ecstatic. but i dont "expect it "

 

[j_y19]

j-y19 if you expect that ANY owner isnt going to chime in about a player he likes etc then you are living in the land of theory and not reality .

All owners meddle some , why own a team if you cant ?

so what do you call meddling ? forcing the GM/HC to pick and play guys you want exclusively ? that is meddling . going down to the field , calling down to the HC during a game suggesting plays, is meddling

advising on acquiring a player and allowing the HC/GM to make the call backing or not backing your advice is not

the owner made some mistakes with RG3 and what he allowed however both shanny and gruden benched him for poor play . i dont see a meddler allowing that treatment of his boy

as has been said numerous times shanny had final say in his contract . bottom line is he made the call. if he was intimidated (which i doubt ) the its on him

joe gibbs had final say . he would still be HC if he wanted too

steve spurrieur had final say . his system failed but snyder wasnt pounding the table for patrick ramsey

zorn was a puppet and basically got the job by default

shottenhiemer was a huge victim of owner interference

again i get that you are shell shocked and dont have the ability to get up and shake it off and allow that he could have changed.

but i see no downside of believing he has . none what so ever because i really dont suffer to much if we lose . i am not jumping off a mental cliff

the worst that happens to me is i am called a fool for believing . thats it , being called a fool by someone i havent met on the internet .

well i have way more fortitude then that to sweat that foolishness one bit

i have and can eat all the crow anyone wants but i will still get back up and keep on tapping

you dont have to trust danny . you and others can be right yet again but i know what we will be in store for . 3-5 more years of misery until we right this ship the way it needs to be

i have us down for 4 -6 wins next season no matter how good we draft / sign fa's coach whatever because we have a long ways to go before we can field a year in and year out playoff contender

if its faster then great i will be ecstatic. but i dont "expect it "

Dad, that's just not accurate. All owners don't meddle. Do you think jack Kent Cooke was entertaining his players or oversaw practice every day? In fact, the best owners are the ones that hire the best minds they can and get out of their way. We can disagree about this until the cows come home, but Snyder has undermined almost every coach he has hired (Gibbs and spurrier excluded). Some he has done subltly and some overtly. But it has been a constant and consistent pattern. So why now should we believe he has changed? You guys question me why I don't have the faith that dan won't screw this up, I gotta question, other than just blind faith, why you believe he he will now get it right?

 

[skinsdad62]

Dad, that's just not accurate. All owners don't meddle. Do you think jack Kent Cooke was entertaining his players or oversaw practice every day? In fact, the best owners are the ones that hire the best minds they can and get out of their way. We can disagree about this until the cows come home, but Snyder has undermined almost every coach he has hired (Gibbs and spurrier excluded). Some he has done subltly and some overtly. But it has been a constant and consistent pattern. So why now should we believe he has changed? You guys question me why I don't have the faith that dan won't screw this up, I gotta question, other than just blind faith, why you believe he he will now get it right?

bob kraft routinely has dinner , goes to dinner parties with to brady .

and wrong , the best owners do not just get out of the way and play tiddly winks while football guys do everything . they all discuss the team , give advice , give visions of the future

perhaps they dont get the publicity snyder does but they sure do discuss their teams

snyder doesnt go to practice every day , installs an offense or defense .

and yes JKC had dinner with players . was at parties with players

why do i think he has changed ? because the fan base is starting to erode they are tired of him and the product on the field . and if he hasnt changed then he will have too because snyder aint dumb

again you dont have to have faith in anything . its your right to have no faith and be defeated all the time . you can lay down and give up if you want too. and most of all you can be 100% right and i will have nothing to say about it

but i choose not to be miserable , i choose not to be defeated . i choose not to give up i choose not to lay down and i will risk being 100% flat wrong because i am a redskins fan and as long as they carry that name i will always be and hence i have no room for defeatism in my fandom

maybe its just me but why follow something you have no faith in ? snyder isnt the redskins . they were around before he showed up and barring a PC attack will be there after he is gone

sooner or later he will "come to jesus "

why hang on to a lost cause ? if you feel it will never change , then you need to reevaluate your loyalties . if you have no hope , then why bother ?

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Wont speak for any one else, but I would love to see Bob actually TAKE the starting job for once in his Redskins career. Go out and play QB (Real QB, not the Mike Vick 2.0 brand). But a legit Qb comp would mean a starter wont even be close to decided before week three of the preseason. If every one has an EVEN shot and Bob wins out, it will actually mark real improvement in him as a QB..... that or it will mean Kirk Cousins or who ever else is in the comp isnt fit to walk on the field.

Works for me. Also - as I have stated before - if they all suck then no big deal as long as the rest of the team is heading in the right direction (which I believe is very possible w/ this GM). In that case they get their QB in 2016 who will have the benefit of playing with a legit team.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

perhaps they dont get the publicity snyder does but they sure do discuss their teams

snyder doesnt go to practice every day , installs an offense or defense .

What is funny about that is the fact that Dan Snyder actually avoids the press personally more than just about any owner in sports. He has admitted to the fact that he hates to be on camera (unlike someone like Jerry Jones or Mark Cuban) & at best you will seem him responding to questions once or twice a year (possibly a bit more with the whole name change crap).

The team moves & his occasional shots in the crowd, etc are what draws attention (which he apparently hates). No doubt he is (rightfully so in many cases) hated for a lot of other reasons.

 

[skinsdad62]

pete carroll was let go by bob kraft because he didnt fit "krafts" vision of how he wanted the patriots to be . how does that happen unless he is giving input ?

all owners meddle . its just a matter of degree

when we won superbowls JKC gave thiesman a blank check and said "fill in the number " where was beathard? gm's should handle contracts but yet the owners is handing out blank checks ?

now kraft and JKC generally left operations alone when they got the HC and staff they wanted but on occasion they did meddle

now snyder has done that more then most over the totality of his ownership but dont tell me owners never meddle , even your hero owners because that isnt true

 

[j_y19]

pete carroll was let go by bob kraft because he didnt fit "krafts" vision of how he wanted the patriots to be . how does that happen unless he is giving input ?

all owners meddle . its just a matter of degree

when we won superbowls JKC gave thiesman a blank check and said "fill in the number " where was beathard? gm's should handle contracts but yet the owners is handing out blank checks ?

now kraft and JKC generally left operations alone when they got the HC and staff they wanted but on occasion they did meddle

now snyder has done that more then most over the totality of his ownership but dont tell me owners never meddle , even your hero owners because that isnt true

So I see what Kraft did is exactly what an owner should do. You set a vision for what you want your product to be. You hire good people (or try) and pass that vision onto them for them to execute on. If a coach, FO executive, or player fails at following that vision, you fire them. But until you do, you give them the unimpeded opportunity to execute toward that vision. You don't micromanage or pop in and pop out when you are interested. You set up regular status meetings with your management team to ensure things are going as visioned. This is exactly what Kraft did with Carroll and exactly what dan does not do. Dan has regularly bypassed management and gone directly to certain employees, causing management nightmares and locker room issues. But I guess that's worked for him do far, so let's just trust him that he knows what he is doing going forward? Are you happy with the product dan has provided you so far?

 

[skinsdad62]

So I see what Kraft did is exactly what an owner should do. You set a vision for what you want your product to be. You hire good people (or try) and pass that vision onto them for them to execute on. If a coach, FO executive, or player fails at following that vision, you fire them. But until you do, you give them the unimpeded opportunity to execute toward that vision. You don't micromanage or pop in and pop out when you are interested. You set up regular status meetings with your management team to ensure things are going as visioned. This is exactly what Kraft did with Carroll and exactly what dan does not do. Dan has regularly bypassed management and gone directly to certain employees, causing management nightmares and locker room issues. But I guess that's worked for him do far, so let's just trust him that he knows what he is doing going forward? Are you happy with the product dan has provided you so far?

nice attempted dodge the fact is owners meddle they all do . whether i am happy with dan's product has nothing to do with whether owners meddle . not one thing .

kraft had his vision and didnt allow his guy to follow his but maybe kraft isnt the best example but JKC is better and one you didnt choose to refute even though you held him up as a guy who didnt meddle which was shot down .

the issue here is do owners meddle . the answer is yes they do . the only question is to what degree

now if you want to ask me if i am happy with snyders stewardship of the team . then no i am not
his philosophy is not in step with what i would do

but again we are talking about meddling not whether i like him or not

now if you want me to believe that kraft isnt involved with his teams decisions and he is playing tiddly winks in his office then you are in for a long hard sell

and if you think that i feel danny is as pure as the driven snow then you are a fool

 

[SoCalWizFan]

So I see what Kraft did is exactly what an owner should do. You set a vision for what you want your product to be. You hire good people (or try) and pass that vision onto them for them to execute on. If a coach, FO executive, or player fails at following that vision, you fire them. But until you do, you give them the unimpeded opportunity to execute toward that vision. You don't micromanage or pop in and pop out when you are interested. You set up regular status meetings with your management team to ensure things are going as visioned. This is exactly what Kraft did with Carroll and exactly what dan does not do. Dan has regularly bypassed management and gone directly to certain employees, causing management nightmares and locker room issues. But I guess that's worked for him do far, so let's just trust him that he knows what he is doing going forward? Are you happy with the product dan has provided you so far?

All that you can do is wait & see what happens over the next few seasons. This appears to be the first time that the Redskins have had a true GM during Snyder's time with the team (pseudo GMs like Shanahan & Gibbs are never a good idea).

I also believe that the locker room issues are totally overstated. The Redskins didn't lose because of the locker room last year. They lost because they couldn't tackle, cover or block. The QB play was bad many times because of turnovers, bad fundamentals, etc - not because of attitude or because other players were thinking "Mr. Snyder likes him better".

As far as I am concerned they can start any of the current 3 QBs (or none of them) at the beginning of next season. There are other issues that concern me a lot more, and I don't believe that there will be major regrets if they trade any of those QBs by next season. Time will tell.

I am certainly not happy with the results thus far during the Snyder era. However - I am very pleased with the most recent GM hire & regard this as the biggest move in at least 5 years. Will it work out? Who knows but it - again - provides hope & that is all that we can ask for at this time.

 

[j_y19]

nice attempted dodge the fact is owners meddle they all do . whether i am happy with dan's product has nothing to do with whether owners meddle . not one thing .

kraft had his vision and didnt allow his guy to follow his but maybe kraft isnt the best example but JKC is better and one you didnt choose to refute even though you held him up as a guy who didnt meddle which was shot down .

the issue here is do owners meddle . the answer is yes they do . the only question is to what degree

now if you want to ask me if i am happy with snyders stewardship of the team . then no i am not
his philosophy is not in step with what i would do

but again we are talking about meddling not whether i like him or not

now if you want me to believe that kraft isnt involved with his teams decisions and he is playing tiddly winks in his office then you are in for a long hard sell

and if you think that i feel danny is as pure as the driven snow then you are a fool

Dad, just because I don't respond over and over again with my position doesn't mean I don't refute your argument, I just choose not to get into the same old back and forth we tend to do here repeating the same position over and over again. I disagree with you. What you term as meddling ( as outlined by both examples of Kraft and cooke) I don't see as meddling, but providing leadership and direction. There are very few owners that stick their noses into the daily machinations of franchise operations like dan does. And when he does, he usually fuxxx it up. The original point was about trusting him that he won't do it again. You apparently are of the belief that he has changed his ways (for real this time). I need to actually see it before I will call dan a changed man. In fact, I'd bet he hasn't changed and at some point will stick his nose back in and "influence" a decision by the GM, HC, or FO that will be counter to what they would normally do. Why do I feel this way? Because that is Dan's nature. He hasn't the patience nor knowledge to be a good owner. At the end of the day, dan thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. Now this may not happen this year, but I'd wager a tidy sum that the real dan will emerge at some point with this new regime. The only question is how will our new GM and fairly new HC deal with it. This is not how the krafts, or maras or Rooneys act as owners. Sorry, but I just plainly disagree with you if you think they do.

 

[Lonewate44]

Dad, just because I don't respond over and over again with my position doesn't mean I don't refute your argument, I just choose not to get into the same old back and forth we tend to do here repeating the same position over and over again. I disagree with you. What you term as meddling ( as outlined by both examples of Kraft and cooke) I don't see as meddling, but providing leadership and direction. There are very few owners that stick their noses into the daily machinations of franchise operations like dan does. And when he does, he usually fuxxx it up. The original point was about trusting him that he won't do it again. You apparently are of the belief that he has changed his ways (for real this time). I need to actually see it before I will call dan a changed man. In fact, I'd bet he hasn't changed and at some point will stick his nose back in and "influence" a decision by the GM, HC, or FO that will be counter to what they would normally do. Why do I feel this way? Because that is Dan's nature. He hasn't the patience nor knowledge to be a good owner. At the end of the day, dan thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. Now this may not happen this year, but I'd wager a tidy sum that the real dan will emerge at some point with this new regime. The only question is how will our new GM and fairly new HC deal with it. This is not how the krafts, or maras or Rooneys act as owners. Sorry, but I just plainly disagree with you if you think they do.

I totally see what your saying....But unlike previous years when Dan hired his guys...they were YEs men...I dont believe Scot is a Yes Man.....I believe he will tell dan to go and fuck himself...and if he dont like it....to fire him and he walks with lots of $$$$$$

 

[j_y19]

I totally see what your saying....But unlike previous years when Dan hired his guys...they were YEs men...I dont believe Scot is a Yes Man.....I believe he will tell dan to go and fuck himself...and if he dont like it....to fire him and he walks with lots of $$$$$$

That's the unknown, what scot does. I don't think what dan does should be a big surprise.

 

[skinsdad62]

Dad, just because I don't respond over and over again with my position doesn't mean I don't refute your argument, I just choose not to get into the same old back and forth we tend to do here repeating the same position over and over again. I disagree with you. What you term as meddling ( as outlined by both examples of Kraft and cooke) I don't see as meddling, but providing leadership and direction. There are very few owners that stick their noses into the daily machinations of franchise operations like dan does. And when he does, he usually fuxxx it up. The original point was about trusting him that he won't do it again. You apparently are of the belief that he has changed his ways (for real this time). I need to actually see it before I will call dan a changed man. In fact, I'd bet he hasn't changed and at some point will stick his nose back in and "influence" a decision by the GM, HC, or FO that will be counter to what they would normally do. Why do I feel this way? Because that is Dan's nature. He hasn't the patience nor knowledge to be a good owner. At the end of the day, dan thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. Now this may not happen this year, but I'd wager a tidy sum that the real dan will emerge at some point with this new regime. The only question is how will our new GM and fairly new HC deal with it. This is not how the krafts, or maras or Rooneys act as owners. Sorry, but I just plainly disagree with you if you think they do.

we will just have to disagree on this no big deal