All Star Voting screw ups

[BostonAJ]

Making the 1st or 2nd All Star Teams at the end of the season is a fairly sizeable accolade. While it may not have the prestige of winning the Hart, it is a valuable asset in determining who the star players were in a particular year, as well as in evaluating an individual player's overall career. How many times was a player one of the top guys at his position? Rocket Richard made the All Star Team 14 times, Gretzky managed 15, Ray Bourque did it 18 times, and Gordie Howe earned the honor an amazing 21 times!

Here's this year's All Star Teams...

1st Team
C: Henrik Sedin
LW: Alexander Ovechkin
RW: Patrick Kane
D: Duncan Keith
D: Mike Green
G: Ryan Miller

2nd Team
C: Sidney Crosby
LW: Martin St. Louis
RW: Daniel Seidin
D: Drew Doughty
D: Nicklas Lidstrom
G: Ilya Bryzgalov

And here's the 3rd Team, or the runners up in the voting...
C: Steven Stamkos
LW: Patrick Marleau
RW: Marian Gaborik
D: Chris Pronger
D: Dan Boyle
G: Martin Brodeur

Now here's the problem: one voter incorrectly gave Patrick Marleau a second-place vote as a right wing. Had the voter given Marleau that vote for left wing, Marleau would have taken the second-team LW spot from Daniel Sedin.

Also, in 2002, Todd Bertuzzi was 3rd in All Star voting for LW (behind Naslund and Shanahan) and 6th in All Star voting for RW. And in 2009, Malkin received an All Star vote at LW.

My concern is that some of the voters don't seem to be aware of what positions the players play. I don't understand how that's possible. If that is indeed the case, how valid are the All Star teams?

 

[scottflyers88]

meh. they should just vote for the player and not the position.

 

[Darkstone42]

meh. they should just vote for the player and not the position.

The inherent problem with that is that centers carry more value than wingers, which would put wingers at a disadvantage.

And Marleau is technically a center, so receiving votes on a wing is wrong. When Malkin received his votes as a LW, it was in his rookie season I believe, when he in fact played more LW than C. So maybe it's based on where they play the most during the season. Which can also get really confusing, since there's so much movement and line shuffling.

 

[scottflyers88]

so what is the problem with just voting for a player and the nhl puts them where they are supposed to? say marleau gets 5 votes and ovechkin gets 4. if marleau gets 3 votes for left wing and 2 for right wing then ovechkin wins. or they could just use all 5 marleau votes and put him where he is supposed to be.

 

[Darkstone42]

so what is the problem with just voting for a player and the nhl puts them where they are supposed to? say marleau gets 5 votes and ovechkin gets 4. if marleau gets 3 votes for left wing and 2 for right wing then ovechkin wins. or they could just use all 5 marleau votes and put him where he is supposed to be.

The problem that would concern me would be that you would have situations in which seven or eight centers, who play center, would be selected. So how do you determine the teams?

 

[scottflyers88]

i do not know. i really do not care about that stuff.

 

[Darkstone42]

I'm a stat guy, so I kind of do. Unfortunately, I can't seem to develop any sabremetrics aside from my extremely flawed system of Goalie Rating stats.

 

[scottflyers88]

i like stats although they are not perfect. being on a better team helps, being on a better line help, and for goalies your team really effects you. the easiest way to figure out how good someone is is to watch them.

i like basic stats and besides that i think it just gets out of hand. some of the in depth stats are a little much.

 

[anderwho2513]

Pronger had a better year than Lidstrom.

 

[scottflyers88]

and mike green is worse than keith, doughty, pronger, and lidstrom.

 

[Darkstone42]

That's the difficult with developing hockey sabremetrics. Everyone is so dependent on everyone else. It's not like baseball where you can develop defensive sabremetrics based on the fielder's area and how he covers it, or offensively because every at bat is individual of the others, and there are enough throughout the season to average out all the scenarios. Players have their roles, they're just more more loosely defined.

But sabremetrics have proved extremely accurate in baseball, and can be used to predict (with pretty good accuracy, surprisingly) how good a team will be before the season even starts, and as the season goes, those predictions get more and more accurate. They can be used to project prospects, and GMs use them to issue market-fair contracts to free agents.

But right now in hockey, the only legitimately telling stats are goals, assists, time on ice, hits, and shots. Everything else is speculative until a trend can be noticed over the course of several seasons.

 

[anderwho2513]

But right now in hockey, the only legitimately telling stats are goals, assists, time on ice, hits, and shots. Everything else is speculative until a trend can be noticed over the course of several seasons.

Yea, and Pronger > Lidstrom in everything except shots (and +/-, but that was a tie), even blocked shots by over 100.

I do enjoy the PROD stat, though. It's the average time on ice needed to get a point, TOI/pts. (Pronger was better than Lidstrom in that, too)

 

[Darkstone42]

Yea, and Pronger > Lidstrom in everything except shots (and +/-, but that was a tie), even blocked shots by over 100.

I do enjoy the PROD stat, though. It's the average time on ice needed to get a point, TOI/pts. (Pronger was better than Lidstrom in that, too)

In my opinion, PROD isn't all that much more telling that ppg, and I actually think I prefer ppg, since it's not situationally dependent the way PROD is.

But what I would like to do is develop something like baseball's WAR. Because wins are the ultimate goal of a team, finding out how many wins each player is worth would be incredibly useful, especially to GMs during UFA season.

 

[Bizzle McDizzle]

I say let the real voters make all the positional mistakes they want..


This is what happens when you put decisions in the hands of the general public...

Starters:
G Carey Price (Montreal Canadiens)
D Mike Komisarek (Montreal Canadiens)
D Andrei Markov (Montreal Canadiens)
F Alexei Kovalev (Montreal Canadiens)
F Vincent Lecavalier (Tampa Bay Lightning)
F Evgeni Malkin (Pittsburgh Penguins)

 

[puckhead]

I say let the real voters make all the positional mistakes they want..


This is what happens when you put decisions in the hands of the general public...

Starters:
G Carey Price (Montreal Canadiens)
D Mike Komisarek (Montreal Canadiens)
D Andrei Markov (Montreal Canadiens)
F Alexei Kovalev (Montreal Canadiens)
F Vincent Lecavalier (Tampa Bay Lightning)
F Evgeni Malkin (Pittsburgh Penguins)

I have been saying for 8 years that the general public shouldn't vote, and certainly not with their computers.
Ever since a 58 point Vincent Damphousse was chosen as a starting forward (2002), along with a 66 point Owen Nolan, it was proven to be a deeply flawed system. And, no, they didn't start the year off incredibly hot to drum up league-wide interest.

 

[popeyecv64]

Fuck obama sin ladin

 

[Destroydacre]

I have been saying for 8 years that the general public shouldn't vote, and certainly not with their computers.
Ever since a 58 point Vincent Damphousse was chosen as a starting forward (2002), along with a 66 point Owen Nolan, it was proven to be a deeply flawed system. And, no, they didn't start the year off incredibly hot to drum up league-wide interest.

Sharks fans rule.

 

[puckhead]

Sharks fans rule.

they were certainly effective, I will give them that!
that allstar game was in LA, so I think the whole program
was an extra little jab to their stately neighbours

 

[Comeds]

If I remember correctly I think the Sharks that season has ballot punching parties and admitted it. If its truly who the fans pick thats all well and good but then its obvious that being on or off the All Star Team roster should have little reflection on a player or his skills that year.

 

[Dupster]

I like the three forwards being any position, too. It's not like the 1st allstar team is going to play the 2nd allstar team in a little exhibition scrimmage in August or anything.