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2024 Hall of Fame Ballot

calsnowskier

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No one should get a vote until they figure out how to get all the high profiled PED guys in. They let Bagwell and Ortiz in so Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and Sosa should be in
Sosa has the bat issue. And his peak was really short. He seems to be entirely a product of the juice. I am Luke warm on his induction.

McGwire should probably be in, but he isn’t a clear cut, imho.
 

Cedrique

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Sosa has the bat issue. And his peak was really short. He seems to be entirely a product of the juice. I am Luke warm on his induction.

McGwire should probably be in, but he isn’t a clear cut, imho.
I used to think that about Sosa too but I was looking at it again recently and he actually had about a decade where he was putting up the numbers. And while I definitely believe a lot of the power numbers from that era are inflated the fact that he was getting mvp votes all those years shows he was still performing well even when compared to other players of his inflated era. He hit between 36 and 66 HRs nine years in a row. Granted his 600 homeruns were not as valuable as they would be if he hit them in an era where runs were harder to come by (which shows in his total WAR number) but I think it's enough to get him in. Or course like you said, there is still the bat incident.....
 

calsnowskier

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I used to think that about Sosa too but I was looking at it again recently and he actually had about a decade where he was putting up the numbers. And while I definitely believe a lot of the power numbers from that era are inflated the fact that he was getting mvp votes all those years shows he was still performing well even when compared to other players of his inflated era. He hit between 36 and 66 HRs nine years in a row. Granted his 600 homeruns were not as valuable as they would be if he hit them in an era where runs were harder to come by (which shows in his total WAR number) but I think it's enough to get him in. Or course like you said, there is still the bat incident.....
I have a hard time being TOOO critical of the pre-testing “juicers” because there were no rules against the juice and the allegations (no matter how obvious most of those allegations are), are just allegations. But Sosa has the allegations AND the bat. At some point, you just gotta say, “Seriously, dude?”.

The bat colors all my Sosa opinions. It kinda nullifies all the arguments I use in defense of BB and RC.
 

Cedrique

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I have a hard time being TOOO critical of the pre-testing “juicers” because there were no rules against the juice and the allegations (no matter how obvious most of those allegations are), are just allegations. But Sosa has the allegations AND the bat. At some point, you just gotta say, “Seriously, dude?”.

The bat colors all my Sosa opinions. It kinda nullifies all the arguments I use in defense of BB and RC.
At least he never had 18 inches of pine tar on his bat like Brett. That guy is the real monster

But yeah McGwire is a close one too. You look at the raw numbers and think he's gotta be in. Normally if a guy has 583 homeruns the rest of the numbers fall into place. But again, he's in an era where lots of guys hit homeruns. I still think he squeaks in though.
 
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calsnowskier

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At least he never had 18 inches of pine tar on his bat like Brett. That guy is the real monster

But yeah McGwire is a close one too. You look at the raw numbers and think he's gotta be in. Normally if a guy has 583 homeruns the rest of the numbers fall into place. But again, he's in an era where lots of guys hit homeruns. I still think he squeaks in though.
A corked bat is different than pine tar being slightly past the acceptable line.

I agree on McGwire. He was a major power hitter, but he played in the era where that wasn’t really that special. He is a borderline case, imho. Gun to my head, I probably put him in.
 

Robotech

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A corked bat is different than pine tar being slightly past the acceptable line.

I agree on McGwire. He was a major power hitter, but he played in the era where that wasn’t really that special. He is a borderline case, imho. Gun to my head, I probably put him in.

McGwire should be in, but I get it that the steroids taint is still super strong right now. Growing up in the '80s and '90s, McGwire was an absolute legend to all of us who watched baseball back then.
 

wazzu31

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Sosa has the bat issue. And his peak was really short. He seems to be entirely a product of the juice. I am Luke warm on his induction.

McGwire should probably be in, but he isn’t a clear cut, imho.
Sosa’s peak was better than Ortiz’ career. McGwire is clear cut. Sure he used the juice but his brittle body still got 600 HR’s. Sure he cheated but Hank Aaron got the record because of longevity not because anyone considered him a HR hitter. Bad comparison but peak should matter. Ask a semi decent hardcore baseball fan and when bringing up HR’s Hank Aaron isn’t brought up until someone runs out of arguments. Roger Maris is always brought up and if Sandy Koufax is in the hall then Roger Maris should be. They need to have one set of rules, not just picking and choosing by writers who are as qualified as a local NYC plumber. It can’t be peak and longevity, can’t be magical numbers but then fictitious numbers like Ozzie Smith vs Omar Vizquel.
 

wood20ks

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but Hank Aaron got the record because of longevity not because anyone considered him a HR hitte

What??

Aaron hit 40 or more 8x with a hi of 47 and hit 38 or 39 3x......
Just led the league in hrs 4x,with a career ave of .305.

Thats not longevity.
Thats a hr hitter.
 

navamind

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What??

Aaron hit 40 or more 8x with a hi of 47 and hit 38 or 39 3x......
Just led the league in hrs 4x,with a career ave of .305.

Thats not longevity.
Thats a hr hitter.

The guy that hit 40+ home runs eight times and 30+ home runs 15 times in his career, won four HR titles and hit the second most home runs isn't a home run hitter.

Ladies and gentlemen, wazzu31.
 

navamind

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Ichiro only led in batting average twice. Guess he wasn't really a contact hitter.
 

calsnowskier

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Ichiro only led in batting average twice. Guess he wasn't really a contact hitter.
Sorry, unrelated rabbit hole here…

Ichiro only had 4 seasons with an OPS+ of 120 or higher, and his career high was 130. Imho, he is no questions asked first ballot HOFer, but his actual numbers were quite perplexing. No one questions his hitting ability. Right up there with Gwynn and Rose. Absolutely amazing bat control. But dude simply didn’t perform when it came to OPS.

Doesnt make sense. He just performed in the absolute negative-sweet spot for the stat, I guess.
 

Cedrique

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Sorry, unrelated rabbit hole here…

Ichiro only had 4 seasons with an OPS+ of 120 or higher, and his career high was 130. Imho, he is no questions asked first ballot HOFer, but his actual numbers were quite perplexing. No one questions his hitting ability. Right up there with Gwynn and Rose. Absolutely amazing bat control. But dude simply didn’t perform when it came to OPS.

Doesnt make sense. He just performed in the absolute negative-sweet spot for the stat, I guess.
I just looked at his career stats. He's great for the first 10 years of his mlb career. He probably should have hung it up then at around age 37. But then he played another decade with no power. I guess he just loved the game that much that as long as some team wanted him he was going to keep going.

Rickey Henderson was a better player but his OPS stats are kind of like that too. His lifetime OPS is .820. It seems like it should be higher-and it was until he hung around into his mid 40s.
 

navamind

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Sorry, unrelated rabbit hole here…

Ichiro only had 4 seasons with an OPS+ of 120 or higher, and his career high was 130. Imho, he is no questions asked first ballot HOFer, but his actual numbers were quite perplexing. No one questions his hitting ability. Right up there with Gwynn and Rose. Absolutely amazing bat control. But dude simply didn’t perform when it came to OPS.

Doesnt make sense. He just performed in the absolute negative-sweet spot for the stat, I guess.

I do think Ichiro the hitter is a tad overrated, though to be fair I do wonder how he would have done if he came over at a much younger age. He was an excellent contact hitter and posted good OBPs, but hardly great. And he hit for no power, whether he was selling out for singles (see the "Ichiro could hit home runs if he wanted to" argument) or simply had little power. I'd say he was a good hitter, but he certainly doesn't come to mind when I think of all-time great hitters. An all-time great at hitting for average, but that's just one facet of hitting.

He should be in more for his defense and base running IMO. Just a lethal base stealer and played an amazing right field.
 

navamind

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I just looked at his career stats. He's great for the first 10 years of his mlb career. He probably should have hung it up then at around age 37. But then he played another decade with no power. I guess he just loved the game that much that as long as some team wanted him he was going to keep going.

Rickey Henderson was a better player but his OPS stats are kind of like that too. His lifetime OPS is .820. It seems like it should be higher-and it was until he hung around into his mid 40s.

Rickey was much, much better at getting on base and had considerably more pop.
 

wazzu31

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What??

Aaron hit 40 or more 8x with a hi of 47 and hit 38 or 39 3x......
Just led the league in hrs 4x,with a career ave of .305.

Thats not longevity.
Thats a hr hitter.
Yeah, it is called longevity. If you ask a baseball historian and you talk about home run hitters, it will take about 30 guys into even talking about Hank Aaron. There isn’t a single person that would ever put Hank Aaron on a Mt Rushmore, just like no one would ever say Pete Rose was the best hitter of all time. But there are plenty of people who will argue Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher of all time or Hack Wilson had the best offensive season ever.
 

calsnowskier

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Rickey was much, much better at getting on base and had considerably more pop.
And whoever hit behind him had a huge advantage because Rickey would mind-r@pe the pitcher
 

wood20ks

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Yeah, it is called longevity. If you ask a baseball historian and you talk about home run hitters, it will take about 30 guys into even talking about Hank Aaron. There isn’t a single person that would ever put Hank Aaron on a Mt Rushmore, just like no one would ever say Pete Rose was the best hitter of all time. But there are plenty of people who will argue Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher of all time or Hack Wilson had the best offensive season ever.

Huh.....??

Now we judge players on whether they may or may not be Mt Rushmore worthy......lol

Well I guess the likes of these players here need new identities then:


By your standards,there are many players on that list you think are not hr hitters then.......
So what would you call them........so what would their identity be???
 

Cedrique

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Rickey was much, much better at getting on base and had considerably more pop.
Of course, .820 is much better than .757 but the thing I'm saying is similar about them is if you hack off the last 10 years of their careers those OPS numbers will be considerably higher.
 
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