The Kevin Durant/N.Y. Knicks Bandwagon: I'm Now In...

[Gman]

For example, Marcus Smart is a good player with trade value, but at $12 million a year, he is who he is and he has little trade value for a team like the Pelicans.

Marcus Smart could provide leadership for a young team. Smart is all hustle and competitiveness and winning on the court. His contract is very reasonable.

A downside of the Knicks offer is the Pel's would be left with a very young team with a perhaps toxic level of inexperience. Just pairing Barrett and Zion together as the face of the franchise is dangerous because neither has any experience as a pro. Tatum, OTOH, has two years under his belt... he is by all accounts a gym-rat, already a family man... much more settled.

 

[tlance]

Marcus Smart could provide leadership for a young team. Smart is all hustle and competitiveness and winning on the court. His contract is very reasonable.

A downside of the Knicks offer is the Pel's would be left with a very young team with a perhaps toxic level of inexperience. Just pairing Barrett and Zion together as the face of the franchise is dangerous because neither has any experience as a pro. Tatum, OTOH, has two years under his belt... he is by all accounts a gym-rat, already a family man... much more settled.

I agree Smart has value.

But I also bet NO would prefer the younger, cheaper players with upside that the Knicks can offer. Also, like I said before, Boston isn't likely to make their best offer. And if they do, they have 1 year with Davis.

 

[Gman]

I agree Smart has value.

But I also bet NO would prefer the younger, cheaper players with upside that the Knicks can offer. Also, like I said before, Boston isn't likely to make their best offer. And if they do, they have 1 year with Davis.

Smart has that specific value to a young team. He's gonna bring his lunch-pail and nut sack to work day in and day out. Tatum (a nice blend of young and experienced), also adds value as a settled pro beyond his value as a great young talent.

The Knicks offer, OTOH, leaves the Pelicans with little leadership and experience. Unbalanced, frankly.

It's a consideration.

And I still don't concede the point that a Celtics offer that doesn't include Brown is necessarily worse than the Knicks offer. Tatum is that established, young and good... and the future Memphis pick is a good one too.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Your mistake is that you are only considering the player's ability level and not their ability level in context with their contract, which actually determines their trade value.

For example, Marcus Smart is a good player with trade value, but at $12 million a year, he is who he is and he has little trade value for a team like the Pelicans.

While Jaylen Brown is a very good player, he only has 1 year on his rookie deal and the team acquiring him will have to pay him a lot of money next season to keep him. Robinson, on the other hand has loads of upside and 3 years until he reaches RFA.

Jaylen Brown is a far superior player today. Robinson has more trade value because the years remaining on his contract in relation to Brown's. A rebuilding team would take Robinson over Brown every time.

New York’s problem is — the best player they have to offer (Dennis Smith) is very poor man’s version of a guy NO already has, in Jrue Holiday.

In today’s NBA — players like Mitchell Robinson do not hold the same value they once did. Teams want to spread the floor and an on the block center isn’t going to help achieve that. As a Pistons fan, I know ALL ABOUT IT. (I can’t stand Andre Drummond)

If Mitchell Robinson was a stretch 4 or a center with ANY range — I’d agree with you.

To me — Boston with 1st picks from LAC, Sacramento and Memphis, as well as their own in the next two years (5 1st round picks), as well as players like Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart — if they wanted to get a deal done — they are the only one who has the assets to do it.

NY and LA would offer their entire teams to make a deal, but I don’t see them having the personnel to get it done.

If Boston is out of the trade talks — I could see NO sitting on AD and then selling him to the highest bidder midseason.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I agree Smart has value.

But I also bet NO would prefer the younger, cheaper players with upside that the Knicks can offer. Also, like I said before, Boston isn't likely to make their best offer. And if they do, they have 1 year with Davis.

Who is the young, cheaper players with upside N.Y. is going to offer? Mitchell Robinson and Dennis Smith? That’s an on the block center with no range and worse version of the PG you have already.

That doesn’t achieve much for NO, IMO.

 

[flyerhawk]

The Lakers literally offered them their entire roster other than LeBron and NO turned them down. The Lakers have no chance at all to trade for Davis, unless they find a third team with players NO wants.

Boston has Jason Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, etc. They also has 2019 or 2020 1st round picks from Memphis, Sacramento and the Clippers, to go along with their 1st round picks.

The Knicks and Lakers could put their trade package together and couldn’t put a package together to match what Boston can offer

The Knicks could offer Smith, Knox, Robinson, the #3 pick, the 2 Dallas 1st rounders(including an unprotected in 2021) and their own 2021.

From a pure asset perspective that is as good as the Celtics.

Brown will be an RFA next year. The Clippers and Kings picks are in the teens. Not ideal in a pretty thin draft class

 

[flyerhawk]

If Boston is out of the trade talks — I could see NO sitting on AD and then selling him to the highest bidder midseason.

I don't see the Pels waiting until the trade deadline. First they would have a disgruntled player poisoning the team and his trade value will much weaker at the deadline than in the offseason.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Griffin and Gentry (among others) disagree with you.



Clearly, you've either never seen him play or think that scoring is all there is to basketball. He has elite passing skills, elite vision and plays very good defense. If he never improves his shooting he'll still have a long career as a solid starting point guard, so hardly a "disaster".



He's put on some weight and was playing at an all star level before he got hurt.



Not necessarily. As I said, Ingram was playing at an all star level before he got hurt. As good as Kuzma has been, he is also about as good as he'll ever be. Ingram can be an all star.

You can say they disagree all you want — No deal has been done. If NO was enamored with what LA had to offer, the trade would be done already.

Ball is a smaller version of Ben Simmons. Solid players, but complete liabilities on offense, to the point where defenses can leave them alone on the perimeter, thus making it more difficult for the rest of the offense. Tough to win when you are playing 4 on 5 in half court sets. Until he can consistently hit a jump shot, he is hurting any team as much as he is helping them. And the disaster comment is in regards to where he was drafted. I’m sure Markelle Fultz will put up similar numbers, but he is a disaster too, unless they can hit a jump shot consistently.

If Ingram weighed what Kuzma did — I’d take Ingram. They list him at 6’9” 190 and I’d bet he isn’t 180 lbs. It is why he has missed like 60 or 70 games the last two years. His body is going to take a beating and he doesn’t have the size to withstand it. I think Ingram will be a solid pro, but I don’t know if he will be an all star. I think he will be a solid support guy though.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I don't see the Pels waiting until the trade deadline. First they would have a disgruntled player poisoning the team and his trade value will much weaker at the deadline than in the offseason.

The value will be that the team that trades for him will be the sole opportunity to get him to sign an extension before the year ends.

I do agree, if he is deadset against playing for NO, it’d hurt the team though.

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't see the Pels waiting until the trade deadline. First they would have a disgruntled player poisoning the team and his trade value will much weaker at the deadline than in the offseason.

Agree. If I'm the Pels, I sit down with AD and ask him directly..."Is there a chance you will stay?" If so, I keep him. If not, I move him asap.

They could get away with not trading him during this past season because of the chance of getting a better offer in the off-season. Even if the other potential offers dried up, they would still have the Lakers offer which was a fair offer.

For that matter, even the Lakers offer got better because they now can include the #4 pick. So waiting was definitely the right move.

But if they wait until the trade deadline this time, they aren't getting the same type of deal. Teams will know that they can just wait until the off-season and possibly get him without giving up any assets.

 

[flyerhawk]

Agree. If I'm the Pels, I sit down with AD and ask him directly..."Is there a chance you will stay?" If so, I keep him. If not, I move him asap.

They could get away with not trading him during this past season because of the chance of getting a better offer in the off-season. Even if the other potential offers dried up, they would still have the Lakers offer which was a fair offer.

For that matter, even the Lakers offer got better because they now can include the #4 pick. So waiting was definitely the right move.

But if they wait until the trade deadline this time, they aren't getting the same type of deal. Teams will know that they can just wait until the off-season and possibly get him without giving up any assets.

Pretty much. No team is going to give the same deal in April that they would give this July.

 

[trojanfan12]

You can say they disagree all you want — No deal has been done. If NO was enamored with what LA had to offer, the trade would be done already.

First off, Griffin said he would have taken the deal. He couldn't at the time it was offered because he wasn't the GM at that time.

Additionally, the Pels were smart to wait because there was/is the possibility of better offers than the Lakers made at the time. In fact, the Lakers own offer has improved because they can now offer the #4 pick instead of what was projected to be an 11-15 pick.

So no, the deal may not have already been done. The Pels will wait to see who offers the most. If it's the Lakers, they'll get him, if not, they won't.

Ball is a smaller version of Ben Simmons. Solid players, but complete liabilities on offense, to the point where defenses can leave them alone on the perimeter, thus making it more difficult for the rest of the offense.

The difference is that Lonzo will at least attempt perimeter shots. This will be the first off-season where Lonzo will be able to spend the off-season working on his shot. If he comes back next season shooting it better, that will help his career a lot.

From what we've seen so far, Simmons won't even shoot it.

Neither is a "complete liability on offense" because of their ability to pass the ball and get easy shots for their teammates. Getting open shots for teammates/getting them the ball where they are most effective will always be a skill that's in high demand.

In short, if either or both can develop at least a serviceable perimeter shot, they will go from being good players to very good, potentially great players. If they don't, they'll be solid starters who didn't live up to their draft status.

And the disaster comment is in regards to where he was drafted. I’m sure Markelle Fultz will put up similar numbers, but he is a disaster too, unless they can hit a jump shot consistently.

Becoming a solid starter isn't a "disaster", even if you're the #2 pick. Fultz is looking like a "disaster" because he can't even seem to get onto the court. Simmons and Ball don't have that problem.

If Ingram weighed what Kuzma did — I’d take Ingram. They list him at 6’9” 190 and I’d bet he isn’t 180 lbs. It is why he has missed like 60 or 70 games the last two years. His body is going to take a beating and he doesn’t have the size to withstand it. I think Ingram will be a solid pro, but I don’t know if he will be an all star. I think he will be a solid support guy though.

Imo, injuries could be a concern for Ingram because he has missed significant time over the past 2 seasons. Fortunately, it was 2 different issues rather than a recurring issue. In fact, the blood clots that put him out this past season are unlikely to ever be an issue again because it was a structural issue corrected with surgery.

I will say though, that while he was playing at an all star level when he went down this past season, he has to show that he can maintain that level which he hasn't done yet.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Agree. If I'm the Pels, I sit down with AD and ask him directly..."Is there a chance you will stay?" If so, I keep him. If not, I move him asap.

They could get away with not trading him during this past season because of the chance of getting a better offer in the off-season. Even if the other potential offers dried up, they would still have the Lakers offer which was a fair offer.

For that matter, even the Lakers offer got better because they now can include the #4 pick. So waiting was definitely the right move.

But if they wait until the trade deadline this time, they aren't getting the same type of deal. Teams will know that they can just wait until the off-season and possibly get him without giving up any assets.

You mean like the Lakers waited for Paul George and OKC made the trade and signed him long term? Same thing could happen with Kawhi in Toronto now.

The ‘assets’ are fine, but the Lakers aren’t winning anything with the team they have and have wasted year 1 with LeBron and he isn’t getting any younger. They can’t afford to waste another year with LeBron.

 

[trojanfan12]

You mean like the Lakers waited for Paul George and OKC made the trade and signed him long term? Same thing could happen with Kawhi in Toronto now.

Not sure what that has to do with anything. Teams simply aren't going to give up as much at the trade deadline as they are now. By the time the trade deadline gets here, FA's will have been signed and other deals already made.

Plus, teams are looking at getting him for at least a full season if they trade for him now. If they wait until the trade deadline, they're looking at 3-4 months.

The ‘assets’ are fine, but the Lakers aren’t winning anything with the team they have and have wasted year 1 with LeBron and he isn’t getting any younger. They can’t afford to waste another year with LeBron.

You realize that the team they have was in the #4 spot and folks were starting to predict they'd make the WCF when all of the injuries started piling up, right?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they'd have held onto that spot if they stayed healthy. But they'd have made the playoffs and the "noise" around them would be a lot quieter. lol

And yes, I expect the Lakers will make some kind of moves in the off-season. They have to. They had the foundation for a good young team that could have been developed...but the instant they got Lebron...that changed. They got a bit of a pass this past season because Lebron knew going in that they weren't going to be contending this past season, even if everyone stayed healthy. But they have to get something done soon. That's why Lebron is apparently out recruiting guys.

I expect their first priority will be to try to get AD via trade and try to sign a top FA. If they can't get AD, I think they'll try to trade for someone like Bradley Beal (which would be a real nice consolation prize).

 

[tlance]

New York’s problem is — the best player they have to offer (Dennis Smith) is very poor man’s version of a guy NO already has, in Jrue Holiday.

In today’s NBA — players like Mitchell Robinson do not hold the same value they once did. Teams want to spread the floor and an on the block center isn’t going to help achieve that. As a Pistons fan, I know ALL ABOUT IT. (I can’t stand Andre Drummond)

If Mitchell Robinson was a stretch 4 or a center with ANY range — I’d agree with you.

To me — Boston with 1st picks from LAC, Sacramento and Memphis, as well as their own in the next two years (5 1st round picks), as well as players like Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart — if they wanted to get a deal done — they are the only one who has the assets to do it.

NY and LA would offer their entire teams to make a deal, but I don’t see them having the personnel to get it done.

If Boston is out of the trade talks — I could see NO sitting on AD and then selling him to the highest bidder midseason.

Dennis Smith is like NY's 4th most valuable trade asset.

Your evaluation of these players and their trade value is way off.

Robinson is an athletic big man who can move his feet. He is going to be an excellent modern big defender whether or not he ever develops more than a catch and dunk offensive game (which is valuable as a rim runner in pick and roll).

 

[tducey]

Durant to the Knicks is something I def see happening, still think with Zion going there Davis stays with the Pelicans.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Dennis Smith is like NY's 4th most valuable trade asset.

Your evaluation of these players and their trade value is way off.

Robinson is an athletic big man who can move his feet. He is going to be an excellent modern big defender whether or not he ever develops more than a catch and dunk offensive game (which is valuable as a rim runner in pick and roll).

NY’s best trade asset was sent to Dallas. The rest of their team is a mish mash of players with huge holes in their game.

Dennis Smith was Dallas’s PG of the future, until they drafted Doncic and moved Smith off the ball and his game suffered.

Knox, like the other options for NY, can’t shoot. He will give you some highlight reel dunks, but his jump shot is terrible.

Mitchell Robinson is another who will give you bits and pieces, but he is so raw and who knows what you will end up with. Unfortunately — the center position isn’t as valuable to teams as it once was. They want someone with range and that definitely isn’t Robinson.

The best player for the Knicks isn’t even on the team yet — it will be either Barrett or Morant.

It is just my opinion, but if I were a GM, because of the #3 overall pick this year, I’d put a deal with NY as the 2nd most enticing, with LA 3rd. But neither are even remotely near what Boston could offer — not that they will offer, but could offer.

 

[tlance]

NY’s best trade asset was sent to Dallas. The rest of their team is a mish mash of players with huge holes in their game.

Dennis Smith was Dallas’s PG of the future, until they drafted Doncic and moved Smith off the ball and his game suffered.

Knox, like the other options for NY, can’t shoot. He will give you some highlight reel dunks, but his jump shot is terrible.

Mitchell Robinson is another who will give you bits and pieces, but he is so raw and who knows what you will end up with. Unfortunately — the center position isn’t as valuable to teams as it once was. They want someone with range and that definitely isn’t Robinson.

The best player for the Knicks isn’t even on the team yet — it will be either Barrett or Morant.

It is just my opinion, but if I were a GM, because of the #3 overall pick this year, I’d put a deal with NY as the 2nd most enticing, with LA 3rd. But neither are even remotely near what Boston could offer — not that they will offer, but could offer.

What I am telling you is that you are vastly undervaluing NY's assets in terms of their trade value.

And simultaneously overrating Boston's a bit.

 

[shopson67]

Who is the young, cheaper players with upside N.Y. is going to offer? Mitchell Robinson and Dennis Smith? That’s an on the block center with no range and worse version of the PG you have already.

That doesn’t achieve much for NO, IMO.

You left out Knox and the #3 pick (likely Barrett). You want to talk about duplication, how about Jrue and Smart? The only big the Celtics can offer is Robert Williams (an on the block center with no range). Celtics draft picks are all later in a wishy-washy draft beyond the top few.

Actually, none of these comparisons matter. Kyrie is going to NYC or LA. He is done with Boston. Ainge has to be smart enough not to risk the majority of his roster on a likely rental (is AD going to re-sign to play with Hayward, lol?). The AD trade options are the Knicks, Lakers, and whomever else decides to ante-up (maybe the Clippers?).

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

You left out Knox and the #3 pick (likely Barrett). You want to talk about duplication, how about Jrue and Smart? The only big the Celtics can offer is Robert Williams (an on the block center with no range). Celtics draft picks are all later in a wishy-washy draft beyond the top few.

Actually, none of these comparisons matter. Kyrie is going to NYC or LA. He is done with Boston. Ainge has to be smart enough not to risk the majority of his roster on a likely rental (is AD going to re-sign to play with Hayward, lol?). The AD trade options are the Knicks, Lakers, and whomever else decides to ante-up (maybe the Clippers?).

I did mention Knox. He is worth a sports center highlight or two for a dunk, but he shot like 35% from the floor.
It is the same thing with basically every Knick player — athletic with no jump shot. Why do you think they are drafting at the top of the draft year in and year out.