Series Thread: 5) Indiana Pacers vs. 4) Philadelphia 76ers

[WiggyRuss]

I mean- it just sucks sometimes. In 2012 the Pelicans got the #1 pick and Anthony Davis was there- a surefire All NBA stud. In 2013 the Cavs got the #1 pick and there was no kind of consensus stud in the draft--- the highest rated players were Oladipo, Len, Noel, McLemore, Bennett.....

Its definitely not hte Cavs fault they got the #1 pick in the Bennett draft--- it just sucks for them that they got that pick a year late--- and its the difference between an Anthony Davis and an Anthony Bennett. Its definitely not the Lakers fault they got the #2 pick in drafts where the consensus top talents were just not big time franchise altering talents-- it just fell that way.

What I am saying is that if I had 2 top 2 picks--- id be really hopefull that I got at least one big time all NBA talent out of it---- and while I think Ingram and Ball can be very good players someday- I dont see franchise altering All NBA talent out of them like a Curry or Durant or Porzingis or Kyrie or Davis, or Simmons or Westbrook or Lillard or Embiid or Towns.....maybe not even on the tier of Tatum or Wiggins, or Wall, or Booker, or Jokic.

 

[trojanfan12]

Let's say Lakers had #1 pick ... Simmons & Ingram were both available and top 2 players ... and the Lakers already had Lonzo. Are you saying the Lakers would take Ingram ? That would be crazy. (if nothing else -- take Simmons and trade him for Ingram and another really good asset)

I think you still have to take Simmons and either figure out the fit later or, as you suggest, take him and trade him for Ingram and another good asset.

I disagree about it being crazy to take Ingram in the scenario that you presented though. If you look at who each was being compared to, it's a question of do you take Lebron or KD. Of course you take Lebron...but are you really going to complain about getting KD?

 

[knowyourenemy]

Umm yeah? So? Want me to post the comments where you said people where dicks too, to have a great Thanksgiving. I don’t see why you have a problem with me all the sudden. We’ve always been cool. Because I said Simmons is better then Ingram?

My advice: stop worrying about whether people on the internet like you.

 

[flyerhawk]

Yes.

You are missing the fact that the argument has basically morphed into the telephone game.

One person made a statement and as it gets repeated it has been taken out of context.

There is no way Ingram is better than Simmons NOW.

There is no way the Lakers would have taken Ingram if they had the #1pick.

But, there is also no reason for Lakers fans to be UPSET that they have Ingram.

You can only be upset if you had an actual chance to get the better guy.

I'm sure Riley would have loved to have LeBron. But, do you think he was UPSET he got Wade?


That's the crux of the argument here.

I think just about everyone would agree with the points here. The problem was that when the shit talking starts people veer away from these points into more dubious arguments, on both sides.

 

[flyerhawk]

I mean- it just sucks sometimes. In 2012 the Pelicans got the #1 pick and Anthony Davis was there- a surefire All NBA stud. In 2013 the Cavs got the #1 pick and there was no kind of consensus stud in the draft--- the highest rated players were Oladipo, Len, Noel, McLemore, Bennett.....

Its definitely not hte Cavs fault they got the #1 pick in the Bennett draft--- it just sucks for them that they got that pick a year late--- and its the difference between an Anthony Davis and an Anthony Bennett. Its definitely not the Lakers fault they got the #2 pick in drafts where the consensus top talents were just not big time franchise altering talents-- it just fell that way.

What I am saying is that if I had 2 top 2 picks--- id be really hopefull that I got at least one big time all NBA talent out of it---- and while I think Ingram and Ball can be very good players someday- I dont see franchise altering All NBA talent out of them like a Curry or Durant or Porzingis or Kyrie or Davis, or Simmons or Westbrook or Lillard or Embiid or Towns.....maybe not even on the tier of Tatum or Wiggins, or Wall, or Booker, or Jokic.

The real travesty is that the Cavs got 3 No. 1 overall picks in 4 years.

 

[WiggyRuss]

The real travesty is that the Cavs got 3 No. 1 overall picks in 4 years.

hey when it happens again this year- and Nick Gilbert delivers Doncic or Ayton- dont complain

 

[trojanfan12]

I find it kind of hilarious that everyone seems to think they know how these players careers are going to turn out.

"Simmons can lead a championship team for years and years", Ingram's going to be a really good player", "Simmons is going to be a Hall of Famer", etc., etc.

Both of these guys look like they are going to be very good and both look like they will be in the league for a long time.

Both also have holes in their game that they need to work on.

What if Simmons never learns to shoot? What if his free throw percentage stays around 56%?

What if Ingram doesn't gain weight? What if he doesn't become more aggressive like the Lakers want him to?

What if one does a better job addressing the holes in his game than the other?

How about we give these guys a couple more years before we decide how their careers will turn out?

 

[Mecca]

i mean Wade is a HOF'er- so no...is Ingram a hall of famer?

I just think the Lakers got kind of unlucky in the drafts that they got the #2 pick. Sometimes the #2 pick is Durant, sometimes you get Curry or Porzingis or whatever a little later down---sometimes you get Thabeet...I mean shit-- the Cavs got Bennett at #1 and the best they prob could have realistically done in that draft is take Oladipo at #1 which still would have been a relative huge disappointment. Oladipo is really good- but- I mean- whats his ceiling ? 2-3 all star games and the 2nd or 3rd best player on a legitimate title contender?

Ben Simmons can be the #1 player on a legitimate title contender.

If I was picking #2 and i got Ingram I would be bummed just because picking that high gives you a chance at a franchise altering player- and while I think Ingram can still be very good- akin to an Oladipo and the fabulous work he is doing with the Pacers- leading them to the #5 seed and making the all star team--- when you pick #2 you want that franchise altering player

i mean- shit- the Sixers had to have a bunch of shots at it --- out of Okafor, Simmons, Embiid, Fultz, Saric--- they hit 2--- about 40%.....looks like they missed terribly on Okafor and Fultz.....the Cavs "missed" on Waiters, Bennett, Thompson in the top 5 on a franchise player-- and of course hit on Bron and Kyrie- about 40%.....

When my team is drafting in the top 2 --- ideally you come away with an All NBA type stud that has the potential to change your franchise...do you think thats Ingram?

Yes, Sir.....Agree.

You want a Franchise player top 2.

But, that's a relative statement towards the talent available.

In this draft, who picked after Ingram would fall into that category?

I like Jaylen Brown and Jamal Murray a lot.

But, have they categorically proved to be better?

Because, I don't think you can realistically make a case for anyone else.

 

[Mecca]

I find it kind of hilarious that everyone seems to think they know how these players careers are going to turn out.

"Simmons can lead a championship team for years and years", Ingram's going to be a really good player", "Simmons is going to be a Hall of Famer", etc., etc.

Both of these guys look like they are going to be very good and both look like they will be in the league for a long time.

Both also have holes in their game that they need to work on.

What if Simmons never learns to shoot? What if his free throw percentage stays around 56%?

What if Ingram doesn't gain weight? What if he doesn't become more aggressive like the Lakers want him to?

What if one does a better job addressing the holes in his game than the other?

How about we give these guys a couple more years before we decide how their careers will turn out?

Agree.

Listen, Everyone had Derrick Rose penciled in as a future HOFer his MVP Season and that thought died a fiery death.

I hope all these guys have long careers. But, nothing is promised.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Yes, Sir.....Agree.

You want a Franchise player top 2.

But, that's a relative statement towards the talent available.

In this draft, who picked after Ingram would fall into that category?

I like Jaylen Brown and Jamal Murray a lot.

But, have they categorically proved to be better?

Because, I don't think you can realistically make a case for anyone else.

sadly i agree--- that was a pretty crappy draft outside of the #1 pick......I think there are at least 7-8 guys in this years draft that would have gone #2 that year...but Simmons prob still goes #1 over Ayton or Doncic...probably.....maybe.....no- probably....i dont know.

it just sucks some years - you gotta be bad at the right time....this years draft is a great draft to be bad thats for sure.

 

[Mecca]

hey when it happens again this year- and Nick Gilbert delivers Doncic or Ayton- dont complain

Who's your preference?

If we get #1, I'd take Ayton.

If we got #3, I actually like JJJ.

If we stay where we are, Sexton or Gilgeous-Alexander and best big available.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I find it kind of hilarious that everyone seems to think they know how these players careers are going to turn out.

"Simmons can lead a championship team for years and years", Ingram's going to be a really good player", "Simmons is going to be a Hall of Famer", etc., etc.

Both of these guys look like they are going to be very good and both look like they will be in the league for a long time.

Both also have holes in their game that they need to work on.

What if Simmons never learns to shoot? What if his free throw percentage stays around 56%?

What if Ingram doesn't gain weight? What if he doesn't become more aggressive like the Lakers want him to?

What if one does a better job addressing the holes in his game than the other?

How about we give these guys a couple more years before we decide how their careers will turn out?

personally i am just going by what i have seen thus far.

right now Simmons made an all star team, his team is the 3 seed and he is averaging 16, 8 and 8.

I see where you had the durant, ingram comparison above and i remember people saying Ingrams game is more like Durants- but not that he was gonna be durant, ...when you see what Durant was doing early on when he was not old enough to shave yourealize just how great and special he was...dude averaged 20 as a rookie at 19 years old, 25 his age 20 year--- and was at 30 points a night at the age of 21

 

[flyerhawk]

How about we give these guys a couple more years before we decide how their careers will turn out?

I am sure we WILL talk about their careers in 2 or 3 years and see how they are progressing. But, right now, there is a clear gap between the two players.

We don't know what the future brings. Ingram could turn into Kobe 2.0 and Simmons may be Rondo 2.0. Any speculation we make in that regard is pure guesswork.

All we can go by is what we have seen. Donovan Mitchell might fizzle out and be nothing more than league average. Malik Monk could turn into a sniper. Lots of people were ragging on Devin Booker after his rookie season. Oladipo was considered a complete bust. So time will tell.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Who's your preference?

If we get #1, I'd take Ayton.

If we got #3, I actually like JJJ.

If we stay where we are, Sexton or Gilgeous-Alexander and best big available.

its so hard between Ayton and Doncic at #1....

id probably still go Doncic...i think hes special and Ayton will be dependent on a PG getting him the ball. Both should be amazing.

then after that- its a guess between Bagley, JJ and Bamba at 3-4-5......Bamba really intrigues me as a poor mans Embiid.....Bagley is just so smooth and polished and i think has the least bust potential and should be pretty good right away....JJ could alter games with his defense within a year or two and turn into a poor mans Anthony Davis.

you really cant go wrong in the top 5

and the crazy thing is- Porter from Mizzou was supposedly the #1 guy a year ago before he had back issues in college....his talent is still off the charts too.

Both of the Bridges should be amazing too.....

and thats without even mentioning Sexton and Trae Young- who are both "A" point guard prospects.....there literally could be 9-10 big time talents in this draft.

 

[Mecca]

I am sure we WILL talk about their careers in 2 or 3 years and see how they are progressing. But, right now, there is a clear gap between the two players.

We don't know what the future brings. Ingram could turn into Kobe 2.0 and Simmons may be Rondo 2.0. Any speculation we make in that regard is pure guesswork.

All we can go by is what we have seen. Donovan Mitchell might fizzle out and be nothing more than league average. Malik Monk could turn into a sniper. Lots of people were ragging on Devin Booker after his rookie season. Oladipo was considered a complete bust. So time will tell.

Agree.

Chauncey Billups was a journeyman bust.

In the right situation, he became a NBA Champion and possible HOFer.

Derricks Rose, youngest NBA MVP ever, has become a NBA journeyman.

 

[WiggyRuss]

@Mecca as good as Tatum has been, and hes prob the #1 pick if the draft was re-done today i thinkwe can agree--- if he was in this years draft where does he go?

I dont think he goes top 5....but im not sure where he goes after that...

 

[Mecca]

its so hard between Ayton and Doncic at #1....

id probably still go Doncic...i think hes special and Ayton will be dependent on a PG getting him the ball. Both should be amazing.

then after that- its a guess between Bagley, JJ and Bamba at 3-4-5......Bamba really intrigues me as a poor mans Embiid.....Bagley is just so smooth and polished and i think has the least bust potential and should be pretty good right away....JJ could alter games with his defense within a year or two and turn into a poor mans Anthony Davis.

you really cant go wrong in the top 5

and the crazy thing is- Porter from Mizzou was supposedly the #1 guy a year ago before he had back issues in college....his talent is still off the charts too.

Both of the Bridges should be amazing too.....

and thats without even mentioning Sexton and Trae Young- who are both "A" point guard prospects.....there literally could be 9-10 big time talents in this draft.

.....this is why I'm glad you are back.

 

[Mecca]

@Mecca as good as Tatum has been, and hes prob the #1 pick if the draft was re-done today i thinkwe can agree--- if he was in this years draft where does he go?

I dont think he goes top 5....but im not sure where he goes after that...

Wow...yeah, that's tough.

Before Trae....maybe Porter if his medical comes back funky.

But, after Ayton, Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba.

I'm on the tense about Mikal.

I think Tatum is a better shooter, Bridges a better defender.

 

[Wamu]

@Mecca as good as Tatum has been, and hes prob the #1 pick if the draft was re-done today i thinkwe can agree--- if he was in this years draft where does he go?

I dont think he goes top 5....but im not sure where he goes after that...

I wasn't thrilled when the Celtics drafted Tatum because of where he played his CBB. But if he can help the Celtics win another championship (or multiple) I would be willing to overlook his 1 year in Durham. At least he's not a Flat Earther like his idiot teammate though.

 

[Mecca]

Wow...yeah, that's tough.

Before Trae....maybe Porter if his medical comes back funky.

But, after Ayton, Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba.

I'm on the tense about Mikal.

I think Tatum is a better shooter, Bridges a better defender.

* fence about Mikal