Mo

[Sackataters]

So Mo is going to be out 12 weeks. Tinsely, though slower, manages the game more steadily. He is also hitting open shots with more accuracy. So, do you think Mo will be signed again this summer? Is signing him the right answer at PG? I don't watch much college ball, so am not sure if the draft has PG talent or not. If Jamal directs this team towards the playoffs, should Mo automatically get his starting spot back? I say no..Corbin would need to give Mo the Niners Smith treatment.

 

[nuraman00]

I would try to sign Mo as a backup PG, to Tinsley. I think his offense off the bench could work better.

I don't think that's what Mo wants though, he wants to start.

So they might have to look for a new backup PG anyways.

 

[Sackataters]

I would try to sign Mo as a backup PG, to Tinsley. I think his offense off the bench could work better.

I don't think that's what Mo wants though, he wants to start.

So they might have to look for a new backup PG anyways.

Hahaha, I love it. I doubt Mo will swallow that one. You really think that much of Jamal, huh? I was just posting on the ESPN board that my friend, you, are a big Jamal proponent. Most think he is a defensive liability.

 

[nuraman00]

Hahaha, I love it. I doubt Mo will swallow that one. You really think that much of Jamal, huh? I was just posting on the ESPN board that my friend, you, are a big Jamal proponent. Most think he is a defensive liability.

I think he's bigger and stronger than Tinsley, and plays like it.

Mo seems skinny to me, like he could get pushed around.

Plus, if Tinsley posts up on offense, then you know he has strength, right? So he must have the strength to defend his position.

Then it comes down to the other factor of defense, speed.

I think Tinsley still has the speed too. He must have some speed to pull off the fancy ball handling moves he does.

Looking at team wide 5-man unit stats, the Jazz are worse on defense with Tinsley, but have a better +/-:

Utah Jazz top five man units data from 82games.com



So according to this, Tinsley helps the offense, makes the defense worse, but is only at -3 compared to the Mo starting lineup with -27.

But as I've said, I think Tinsley is fine on defense, regardless of the stats

 

[nuraman00]

Hahaha, I love it. I doubt Mo will swallow that one. You really think that much of Jamal, huh? I was just posting on the ESPN board that my friend, you, are a big Jamal proponent. Most think he is a defensive liability.

I just think he has a better sense of whom to get the ball to, and he can quickly figure out when option A isn't going to work.

Mo would try to force option A a little bit more, IMO.

 

[MHSL82]

NBA.com: Five-Man Units +/- Stat

This is a little different than the above link. Haven't really looked at it much but wanted to post it before I shut down the computer and go to sleep. So I may look at the differences between the two, though they should be similar - I just know the top five had Tinsley in it on this one and the Top 5 in the above post doesn't. I'm interested in the Win %, too so I will look at that tomorrow sometime.

 

[nuraman00]

I just know the top five had Tinsley in it on this one and the Top 5 in the above post doesn't.

I think you need to check your pills dosage.

The top 5 in the above post does have Tinsley. Check lineup # 2:

2
Tinsley-Foye-Ma.Williams-Millsap-Jefferson 168.6 1.11 1.12 -3 3 5
37.5

82games.com ranks its lineups by minutes.

If you took the top 5 with +/-, I think it would be similar to nba.com's list. (Same +/- for the same lineup, etc.)

I looked at the +26 lineup for both links, and they're the same players.

 

[MHSL82]

I think you need to check your pills dosage.

The top 5 in the above post does have Tinsley. Check lineup # 2:

2
Tinsley-Foye-Ma.Williams-Millsap-Jefferson 168.6 1.11 1.12 -3 3 5
37.5

82games.com ranks its lineups by minutes.

If you took the top 5 with +/-, I think it would be similar to nba.com's list. (Same +/- for the same lineup, etc.)

I looked at the +26 lineup for both links, and they're the same players.

I don't need no stinkin' pills. But I should have worded that better. I was referring to the top lineup. You referred to Lineup #2... Yours is sorted by win percentage, the NBA one is sorted by +/- - I was going to sleep and wasn't going to look much at it until later. So I meant to say I wanted to look at the differences in what they considered the best lineup (without Tinsley) and what NBA.com considered the best lineup (with Tinsley). I want to look at more winning percentages to gauge better what significance that has, how they calculate it, etc.

 

[nuraman00]

I was referring to the top lineup. You referred to Lineup #2... Yours is sorted by win percentage, the NBA one is sorted by +/- -

The 82games.com one is sorted by minutes, not win %.

I'll do a partial repost the first 3 rows:

Lineup # . . . Minutes . . . win %

1 . . .188.4 . . .40.0

2 . . .168.6 . . .37.5

3 . . . 161.5 . . .53.8

You can see the minutes are constantly descending, but the win % is not descending.

 

[MHSL82]

The 82games.com one is sorted by minutes, not win %.

I'll do a partial repost the first 3 rows:

Lineup # . . . Minutes . . . win %

1 . . .188.4 . . .40.0

2 . . .168.6 . . .37.5

3 . . . 161.5 . . .53.8

You can see the minutes are constantly descending, but the win % is not descending.

Wow, I really didn't look at it.

 

[Sackataters]

Translation?

 

[Sackataters]

I'm honing in on Jamal now...he truly does get people more involved. The team has more of an identity and the players individually know more what to expect.

 

[Sackataters]

Sans a game thread, hard to be a jazz fan tonight. Tye needs to go.

 

[nuraman00]

Sans a game thread, hard to be a jazz fan tonight. Tye needs to go.

What don't you like specifically?

 

[Sackataters]

As you know, I am a J Sloan homer. The one thing that bothered me about him though was his stop watch synchronized sub patterns. Corbin follows this dogma with singular focus. He is a momentum destroyer. He shows zero strategic aptitude. He is unimaginitive. He just adheres to a singular script that is ultra frustrating.

 

[MHSL82]

Utah Jazz vs. Atlanta Hawks We lost by 8, so I blame Hayward for this loss - I expect him to make at least 3 of the four three-pointers! What's Hornacek doing?

 

[nuraman00]

As you know, I am a J Sloan homer. The one thing that bothered me about him though was his stop watch synchronized sub patterns. Corbin follows this dogma with singular focus. He is a momentum destroyer. He shows zero strategic aptitude. He is unimaginitive. He just adheres to a singular script that is ultra frustrating.

So you mean both Sloan and Corbin both display strict timings on their substitution patterns?

Or just Corbin?

 

[nuraman00]

As you know, I am a J Sloan homer. The one thing that bothered me about him though was his stop watch synchronized sub patterns. Corbin follows this dogma with singular focus. He is a momentum destroyer. He shows zero strategic aptitude. He is unimaginitive. He just adheres to a singular script that is ultra frustrating.

Funny, the joke on the Portland board about Nate McMillan was that he used an egg timer for his substitutions.

 

[MHSL82]

So you mean both Sloan and Corbin both display strict timings on their substitution patterns?

Or just Corbin?

Funny, the joke on the Portland board about Nate McMillan was that he used an egg timer for his substitutions.

Timed substitutions isn't the problem, it's adjusting the timing of those substitutions to the flow of the game, the hot hand, the person in foul trouble, etc. It's like if I mimicked an expert at something regardless of the data, just based on the timing. What makes someone an expert is the knowledge of when to stick with the gameplan and when to adjust. I have to admit, I haven't paid much attention to timing of the substitutions, just the personnel. Sackataters is probably talking about when Hayward hits three threes in a row and is then substituted 2 minutes before the half is over. What is two minutes more for a hot hand? Or more difficult, when Burk comes in and misses 4 shots without passing much and we have our lead dwindle, sometimes the starter may need to come in to stop the bleeding. I understand that maintaining energy for the final stretch is important too, so no suggestion that timing is wrong per se and that it's not a difficult thing to adjust.

This is the difference between a rebuilding team and a team trying to make the playoffs. I understand Burks will only learn by playing and there is a benefit to playing through your struggles and that pulling a player can make things worse, but managing a game and managing a player is something that can be mutually exclusive, but can also be meshed if done correctly. A player needs trust, so maybe managing the plays, getting him some easy shots before he goes to harder shots. I see sometimes that Burks shoots because he thinks it's his only chance. So managing that is difficult, so I don't blame Corbin that much... but it needs to be done. Corbin and Burks are learning so there is some slack there. Corbin's in a higher position and has been there longer and is the one game-planning, so while there is some slack, he's more responsible for getting this done than any of his players.

I don't mean to pick on Burks, it's true with any young person who doesn't get much playing time (he's doing better and playing more now). I guess I would contrast Burks with Hayward and Evans. Evans doesn't get much time but he's able to do what he's good at because he focuses on that, I don't see him trying to get his shot. Not blaming Burks as this is a coaching thing, he was in an understandable position because he wants to play, and I haven't seen this much lately. Hayward was brought in nicely, despite some grumbles by some fans and writers on his lack of play early in his career (people unfairly questioned Sloan and perhaps Williams - though Williams did have that one play where he was clearly impatient with Hayward's understanding of the play). I like him coming off the bench because he's used well and plenty. I would have disliked the move if it was done and he was left out.

 

[nuraman00]

Hot hand may be one thing. But then there's also a stat that says you're more likely to miss a shot after a made one, than after a miss.



It was at the Sloan Analytics Conference at MIT a few years ago.

So if someone makes a few in a row, pull him because stats say he's going to miss.

If someone has missed a shot, then have him take another one because he's more likely to make it.

I haven't read the whole article, and I don't think it's available to the public, but I would be interested in reading it (if it's not too long) sometime, and seeing how they collected their data.