Why Washington fails and there’s true debate failure on this board regarding QB’s!

[Stymietee]

Let’s begin with a very basic premise…

The ultimate goal is winning a Super Bowl and staying relevant leading to and forever after reaching that goal.

Pretty simple huh? Well, not so much if there’s complete disagreement on what it takes to get there. It is because of this lack of understanding that there’s so much debate around which QB Washington targets and acquires at any point from the fan/follower/supporter perspective. That said, outside of sheer luck, there are two ways to reach this sustaining goal from a QB-centered perspective.

• Acquire a QB who is highly competent but requires the team around him to enhance that competence.

• Acquire the QB who is able to elevate those around him to higher levels of already above average competence.

THAT’S IT????... C’mon Sty, it can’t be that simple, can it?

Well, yeah, it is that simple! It is because of this simple formulation that Washington has failed and the endless debates on this board still rage. Think about this for a moment… identify and build your team in a manner that your QB actually fits into the well-designed team around him or acquire a QB that makes others around him better than previously seen, even a well-designed one. Now, ask yourself... when in recent memory has that ever been the case in D.C.? (Hint; last time that it happened Joe Gibbs took three different highly competent game managers whose competence level rose because of the monstrous team around them to SB titles)

Gibbs used formula #1 above, and I challenge anyone to point to another time since then that either formula was employed.

I want to stay on point here but I know factually that there will be some here pointing to Kirk Cousin’s era and I want to stop that nonsense before it begins. Cousins is clearly in the #1 option (above) and never had the players around him to enhance his play. (Garcon came from Indy, where he was a #2 or 3 option (behind Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne) and used here as a #1. Desean Jackson has never been a #1 that could be reliably called upon to fill that role and the run game was NEVER what it should have been considering the QB) I actually wrote about it here:

Square peg into round holes.​

November 19, 2013 • 7 posts • 462 views

Washington Football Team(Redskins)

#1 - Stymietee

Trying to fit a square peg into round holes is what is wrong with this team. Here's what I mean. The offensive side of the ball: P. Garcon........Is NOT a #1 receiver, his claim to fame has been as a #2, We'll do well to realize...


OK, enough of time-proven ancient history, let’s get back to the topic at hand with this question, given the two ways to do this, which best describes the current team?

ARE THEY??

• A team that is highly competent or building that way, that can win the SB with a QB that is a highly competent game manager type, whose competence is enhanced by the players around him? (See: Tennessee Titans)

• A team with the addition of a highly skilled QB, top-line guys, Rodgers, Watson, etc. (and another piece or two) who’s able to get more out of current players than previously seen? (See: Chiefs)

Answer this basic question and the answer to the football team's, and this boards’ QB questions become obvious. (Keep in mind the goal has been and remains, winning the SB)

Soon, I’ll write about what must be done about getting this current team a #1 WR and why that is the 2nd biggest offensive need behind QB. hehehehe

 

[skinsdad62]

Have we had a change of hear Sty ? I have been saying for years you dont need elite to win .

But let’s add to this , Matt stafford has a career losing record until he comes to LA. With a very good team . He is in the NFC championship game
He will have a career losing record if he wins the Super Bowl

His opponent is the poster child of game manager and avg. Grap . Grap could have his team in a 2nd Super Bowl with a coach with a career losing record .
And what about Josh Allen ? Is he a dick because his defense can’t hold for 13. Freaking seconds ? Allen is elite but did he carry that defense ? The leagues best
The aforementioned KC. Has never had a near complete team .

 

[Stymietee]

Have we had a change of hear Sty ? I have been saying for years you dont need elite to win .

But let’s add to this , Matt stafford has a career losing record until he comes to LA. With a very good team . He is in the NFC championship game
He will have a career losing record if he wins the Super Bowl

His opponent is the poster child of game manager and avg. Grap . Grap could have his team in a 2nd Super Bowl with a coach with a career losing record .

The aforementioned KC. Has never had a near complete team .

Absolutely zero change of heart nor mind.

"I have been saying for years you don't need elite to win." This is true in concert with others here and against what constitutes the team around whomever that guy might have been. (Ex: Garcon is a #1 ...he wasn't)

Stafford is the classic example outlined in my post, L.A. Rams have some (note not just one or two) elite-level players on their team, they carry him and the team, not the other way around.

As game managers go in this regard, I would take Cousins over Keenum, JG slightly over Cousins and Stafford over JG/Cousins. There are levels to game managers too!

Both Garp and Stafford are game managers, given the choice, few would ever take JG over Stafford, correct?

Perhaps KC hasn't had the complete team that he needed (outside of the first year in Minny) was because he was seen as more than what he actually is. (paying him the money that he got meant that some position had to be short-changed)

Good conversation, but there are more important questions and answers in my post than any of these subjects. Thanks!

 

[TheLonestarDUCK]

Dammit - saw the title of the thread and thought you were talking about the Huskies

 

[Stymietee]

Just to be clear, take a look at this team as currently built, then ask what type of QB (given the two choices) best fits towards a goal of winning a SB?

 

[skinsdad62]

I think you have little to no chance of getting an elite qb . The XSkins have been around since 1932 and have had 2 elite , HOF. Qbs and it isn’t because of trying .

We need to stop chasing that shit like Chasing the elusive white whale

If I am the xskins there are 3 things I will always draft somewhere. O/line , Dline and qb till we find one .

 

[Stymietee]

I think you have little to no chance of getting an elite qb . The XSkins have been around since 1932 and have had 2 elite , HOF. Qbs and it isn’t because of trying .

We need to stop chasing that shit like Chasing the elusive white whale

If I am the xskins there are 3 things I will always draft somewhere. O/line , Dline and qb till we find one .

Historically, Washington has been a blue-collar, workman-type organization. Early on their seasonal record was abysmal and more often than not below .500, during a 12 game schedule. As the NFL increased the number of games from 14 to 16 and now 17, their consistent 7-7 and 8-8 finishes often yielded a middle-of-the-pack draft position. There were two times that this team actually attempted to man the squad with elite-level players (George Allen and Gibbs) and not since Sonny have they fielded an elite-level QB.

I'll admit, I'm particularly jealous when other teams get nice things and Washington continuously settles for 2nd best. Now when the opportunity to finally get an elite QB is staring them in the face, it's disheartening to see supporters/fans/ followers wanting to pass. It is interesting to note that the fallback is, draft one until we find one. Considering their typical drafting position and reluctance to move up ( Griffin excepted) to draft one, let me ask... how's chasing that elusive white whale worked out for this team?

 

[skinsdad62]

Historically, Washington has been a blue-collar, workman-type organization. Early on their seasonal record was abysmal and more often than not below .500, during a 12 game schedule. As the NFL increased the number of games from 14 to 16 and now 17, their consistent 7-7 and 8-8 finishes often yielded a middle-of-the-pack draft position. There were two times that this team actually attempted to man the squad with elite-level players (George Allen and Gibbs) and not since Sonny have they fielded an elite-level QB.

I'll admit, I'm particularly jealous when other teams get nice things and Washington continuously settles for 2nd best. Now when the opportunity to finally get an elite QB is staring them in the face, it's disheartening to see supporters/fans/ followers wanting to pass. It is interesting to note that the fallback is, draft one until we find one. Considering their typical drafting position and reluctance to move up ( Griffin excepted) to draft one, let me ask... how's chasing that elusive white whale worked out for this team?

They have no shot at any of the supposed elite qbs and none are staring them in the face . That qb said he wasn’t waiving his no trade clause to come here

 

[chillerdab]

No elite qbs are staring the redskins in the face.

Overpaying an elite qb like aaron rodgers to come to dc for the last few viable years that he has is a mistake because he’s old.

Overpaying via trade for an elite qb to come here Is an even worse prospect that hamstrings the salary cap and draft picks.

No team that overpays for any qb ends up with a good team Sty.

No team that ends up overpaying via trade for any qb ends up a good team either.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

 

[Stymietee]

They have no shot at any of the supposed elite qbs and none are staring them in the face . That qb said he wasn’t waiving his no trade clause to come here

I understand what you're inferring however, it is self-defeating when talking yourself (team reference, not you) out of getting into the game. It is interesting that you take this approach instead of acknowledging that he is the obvious answer to our QB situation. Just admit it, YOU don't want him, correct? I have no illusions about this organization as currently led, and their inability to put together a winner, and it pains me to remind others here about Dan Snyder's penchant to not be a cheapskate when acquiring talent, but should RR and Co. approach Snyder with the idea, I would not discount Washington as a real player for Watson's services.

I don't trust Keim period! His reporting is always questionable and soft-peddled in order to maintain connections to the team. Further, when this bit of news broke, I resourced it as I do with all news and found that every story of that supposed "not waiving his no-trade to come here" all referenced Keim's initial report and none, zero, nada, included a quote from him or his representatives on the matter. Look it up, he (Keim) is the sole source reporting this drivel about "sources indicating to him..." Hell, if that's the case, I too, have breaking opposing news.

 

[Stymietee]

No elite qbs are staring the redskins in the face.

Overpaying an elite qb like aaron rodgers to come to dc for the last few viable years that he has is a mistake because he’s old.

Overpaying via trade for an elite qb to come here Is an even worse prospect that hamstrings the salary cap and draft picks.

No team that overpays for any qb ends up with a good team Sty.

No team that ends up overpaying via trade for any qb ends up a good team either.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

I love challenges so before I provide you with your request, I want to preface this response with a few facts that would make this trade unique. Deshawn Watson is 25 years old and already a top 3 QB in the league. Never in NFL history has so young and well-established talent become available. Let me repeat... NEVER!

So, after a few taps on my old google machine, I found some interesting trades that while not up to current evaluations are what some here would consider "gutting" the future(at the time) and specifically to your challenge, "ends up with a good team" or "overpaying via trade for any qb ends up a good team either." That said, here ya go!

 

[Stymietee]

No elite qbs are staring the redskins in the face.

Overpaying an elite qb like aaron rodgers to come to dc for the last few viable years that he has is a mistake because he’s old.

Overpaying via trade for an elite qb to come here Is an even worse prospect that hamstrings the salary cap and draft picks.

No team that overpays for any qb ends up with a good team Sty.

No team that ends up overpaying via trade for any qb ends up a good team either.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

Continuing... (I think that this last one honestly proves you wrong as values and team outcome are more contemporaneous)

 

[chillerdab]

Chiefs and montana didnt do anything, favre was for one first round pick, Plunkett was terrible
In sf. Theisman was for one first roubd pick.

None of those trades were for franchise altering qbs at the time.

Steve young wasnt even good when he was traded.

None of these trades were for qbs at the top of their game, like you are advocating.

 

[Stymietee]

Chiefs and montana didnt do anything, favre was for one first round pick, Plunkett was terrible
In sf. Theisman was for one first roubd pick.

None of those trades were for franchise altering qbs at the time.

Steve young wasnt even good when he was traded.

None of these trades were for qbs at the top of their game, like you are advocating.

OK, I'm going to stay with you for a while but there's a limit to chasing new subjects.

"Chiefs and Montana didn't do anything, Favre was for one first-round pick, Plunkett was terrible
In SF. Theisman was for one first-round pick."

What these players did was exactly what would happen if ALL but one of the suggestions here became reality... Offer stability and some level of competence. Sorry friend, but the goal of every year is to win the SB. There are players who ONLY have a brief time to make the most of their careers. It is organizational malpractice to NOT do everything possible to win as many games as can be won on the schedule. This includes every playoff game and the SB.


"None of those trades were for franchise-altering QB's at the time."

Considering what each of them had prior to, I beg to differ! [ debate point]
It seems that you want me to point out, Trubisky, Jimmy G, Marcus Mariota, some rookie immediately from this weak class et.al are all NON-franchise-altering suggestions and that there's the ONLY one who would be. OK, there I did it!


"Steve Young wasn't even good when he was traded."

I know, he really stank the joint up or his previous team had no clue about what they had**! That poor guy had to wait behind one of the greatest QB's that the game has ever seen and when he got his chance, he was (and you're right) abysmal ("wasn't even good") LOL!!!
(Note about the ** __ I'll call it Washinton football team syndrome. Tell you what it means at the close of the 2023 season.)

NFL records

• Seventh highest passer rating, career – 96.8
• Most times led the league in passer rating, career – 6 (tied w/ Sammy Baugh)
• Most consecutive times led the league in passer rating – 4 (1991–94)
• One of seven QBs to lead the league in touchdown passes 4 times (tied with Johnny Unitas, Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Len Dawson)
• Most passes attempted, playoff game – 65 vs. Green Bay, 1995
• Most TD passes, playoff game – 6 (tied w/Daryle Lamonica & Tom Brady)
• Most TD passes in one Super Bowl – 6
• Most rushing yards by a QB, postseason career – 594
• Most rushing touchdowns by a QB, postseason career – 8

49ers records

• Highest completion percentage (20+ Atts) (Game): vs Detroit (10/20/91), 90.0
• Most average yards per attempt (20+ Atts) (Game): vs Detroit (12/19/93), 15.39
• Most touchdown passes (season): 36 (1998)
• Best completion percentage (season): 70.3 (1994)
• Best passer rating (season): 112.8 (1994)
• Most 300-yard passing games (season): 7 (1998)
• Best passer rating (career): 101.4
• Most average yards per attempt (career): 8.20
• Most consecutive games with a touchdown pass: 18, at Det. (10/9/94) to vs. StL (11/26/95) note: (DNP in 5 games in 1995)
• Best completion percentage (career): 65.8
• Most rushing touchdowns by a quarterback (career): 43

On the strength of a six-touchdown performance that surpassed the previous Super Bowl record of five, owned by the man Young replaced, Joe Montana, Steve Young was named the MVP of Super Bowl XXIX, as the 49ers defeated the San Diego Chargers, 49–26. Young also threw for 325 yards and rushed for 49 yards, making him the first player ever to finish a Super Bowl as the game's leader in both rushing and passing yards.
In 1999, he was ranked No. 63 on The Sporting News list of the 100 Greatest Football Players. Young was elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame on February 5, 2005; he was the first left-handed quarterback to be so honored.


"None of these trades were for QB's at the top of their game like you are advocating."

I completely and 110% agree!

The closest was my final entry, did you see it? (Stafford)

I'm for this move because I've taken the time to look at the terrible options outlined and submitted on this forum and elsewhere. Noting the futility, I then realized the obvious was staring me directly in my face, as it was one year ago when I told everyone who would pay attention to it, that Washington had no starting level QB and that the best move would be to do everything that it could to land this young (25) and I quote you, "QB's at the top of their game like you are advocating." My question is why aren't more on this board clamoring for the same thing?? Perhaps it's some form of Stockholm syndrome.

 

[chillerdab]

Steve Young in Tampa Bay wasn't good.

Steve Young in San Francisco was Hall of Fame worthy. I made that clear and you misread what I wrote.

It happens.

Everything else that you wrote is either unclear or unrelated to what I posted.

 

[Stymietee]

Steve Young in Tampa Bay wasn't good.

Steve Young in San Francisco was Hall of Fame worthy. I made that clear and you misread what I wrote.

It happens.

Everything else that you wrote is either unclear or unrelated to what I posted.

One of the problems with this fairly new QB centric POV is the general failure to see things from another POV. That said, it wasn't that Young was bad in Tampa but Tampa was bad when Young was there. I didn't misread what you wrote, I just didn't agree with that perspective. Time has proven me correct on this as you've correctly pointed out when noting his time in S.F.

You wanted me to prove you wrong, Stafford trade does just that.

If it's unclear, just think back to this time last year. I warned this entire board that Washington had no starting level QB and despite objections all around, here we are, one wasted year later, exactly where I knew they would be...

 

[Rowdy]

One of the problems with this fairly new QB centric POV is the general failure to see things from another POV. That said, it wasn't that Young was bad in Tampa but Tampa was bad when Young was there. I didn't misread what you wrote, I just didn't agree with that perspective. Time has proven me correct on this as you've correctly pointed out when noting his time in S.F.

You wanted me to prove you wrong, Stafford trade does just that.

If it's unclear, just think back to this time last year. I warned this entire board that Washington had no starting level QB and despite objections all around, here we are, one wasted year later, exactly where I knew they would be...

Redskins tried to get stafford and I think you also warned not to give up a first for him. They offered a 1 & 2

 

[Stymietee]

Redskins tried to get stafford and I think you also warned not to give up a first for him. They offered a 1 & 2

You are correct sir! I'm still not a fan of Stafford in Washington uniforms but dude is a damn good QB!

 

[Sportster 72]

Clouding the issue is the possibility ... not probability that this might be the starting QBs for three teams:

Green Bay - Jordan Love
Pittsburgh - Rudolph or Haskins
Tampa Bay - Kyle Trask

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

Let’s begin with a very basic premise…

The ultimate goal is winning a Super Bowl and staying relevant leading to and forever after reaching that goal.

Pretty simple huh? Well, not so much if there’s complete disagreement on what it takes to get there. It is because of this lack of understanding that there’s so much debate around which QB Washington targets and acquires at any point from the fan/follower/supporter perspective. That said, outside of sheer luck, there are two ways to reach this sustaining goal from a QB-centered perspective.

• Acquire a QB who is highly competent but requires the team around him to enhance that competence.

• Acquire the QB who is able to elevate those around him to higher levels of already above average competence.

THAT’S IT????... C’mon Sty, it can’t be that simple, can it?

Well, yeah, it is that simple! It is because of this simple formulation that Washington has failed and the endless debates on this board still rage. Think about this for a moment… identify and build your team in a manner that your QB actually fits into the well-designed team around him or acquire a QB that makes others around him better than previously seen, even a well-designed one. Now, ask yourself... when in recent memory has that ever been the case in D.C.? (Hint; last time that it happened Joe Gibbs took three different highly competent game managers whose competence level rose because of the monstrous team around them to SB titles)

Gibbs used formula #1 above, and I challenge anyone to point to another time since then that either formula was employed.

I want to stay on point here but I know factually that there will be some here pointing to Kirk Cousin’s era and I want to stop that nonsense before it begins. Cousins is clearly in the #1 option (above) and never had the players around him to enhance his play. (Garcon came from Indy, where he was a #2 or 3 option (behind Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne) and used here as a #1. Desean Jackson has never been a #1 that could be reliably called upon to fill that role and the run game was NEVER what it should have been considering the QB) I actually wrote about it here:

Square peg into round holes.​

November 19, 2013 • 7 posts • 462 views

Washington Football Team(Redskins)

#1 - Stymietee

Trying to fit a square peg into round holes is what is wrong with this team. Here's what I mean. The offensive side of the ball: P. Garcon........Is NOT a #1 receiver, his claim to fame has been as a #2, We'll do well to realize...


OK, enough of time-proven ancient history, let’s get back to the topic at hand with this question, given the two ways to do this, which best describes the current team?

ARE THEY??

• A team that is highly competent or building that way, that can win the SB with a QB that is a highly competent game manager type, whose competence is enhanced by the players around him? (See: Tennessee Titans)

• A team with the addition of a highly skilled QB, top-line guys, Rodgers, Watson, etc. (and another piece or two) who’s able to get more out of current players than previously seen? (See: Chiefs)

Answer this basic question and the answer to the football team's, and this boards’ QB questions become obvious. (Keep in mind the goal has been and remains, winning the SB)

Soon, I’ll write about what must be done about getting this current team a #1 WR and why that is the 2nd biggest offensive need behind QB. hehehehe

I think part of what people always get confrontational is that there is no clear path to a super bowl victory. Everyone watches and sees a team win the Superbowl every year and see how they did it and go " now I know how to win a Superbowl" and want that from their franchise. What people don't understand is that every other team, every other gm, every other coach, and every other fan is thinking the same damn thing. Draft a franchise qb. Get a great defense. Build a great offensive line. Everyone knows damn well what it takes, there is a finite amount of talent in the league and everyone wants it.