Who’s Fault?

[calsnowskier]

So who is PRIMARILY at fault for this shit show?

Farzan - Did he leave the cupboard so bare that this nose dive was inevitable? Did he so blow up the culture that there was no foundation that anyone coming in would be unable to find secure footing (players and management)?

Buster - He is a rookie when it comes to running/building a franchise. How much does he rely on Manasian? Is the roster construction Buster’s fault, or should that be put at the feet of Manasian?

Ownership - “We just want to break even”. That was a bad look quote. In reality, the thought doesn’t bother me. But that comment looked BAD. It planted a seed in the fan base reminding everyone that the Giants are a business, first and foremost. Fandom requires not looking under every rug or opening every closet. Dont remind the fans that the dust is under the rug and the monster actually lives in the closet.

Manasian - Fans forget about him, but HE is the General Manager. Buster gets the attention, but roster construction historically falls to the GM. How are the responsibilities divided in this front office?

Vitiello - giving him a MLB job was almost certainly a mistake. College kids are different than MLB stars. And his in-game decisions are becoming more and more head scratching. Why pinch hit for Cox in a blow out? Come on, man.

Players - When all the wheels fall off the car, I have a hard time blaming the receptionist at the dealership. But she did spill the coffee, so she isn’t without blame. But shouldn’t you be looking at the guy who hired her because of her tits instead of her office know-how?

 

[msgkings322]

It's mostly the players. They aren't doing what the back of their baseball card says they should be. I'm not mad at Posey for bringing in Adames and Chapman and Devers and Ray, I'm mad at them for not being who they were assumed to be. Webb is not helping either, that's not on Posey.

Secondarily it's the owners not willing to do what championship teams do, and commit resources at the same level. That's why, for example, they cheaped out on the bullpen.

Who's fault is it that the farm doesn't seem to produce no doubt stars like so many other teams do? We used to.

 

[calsnowskier]

Posey didn’t acquire Ray. That was FZ. And we picked him up on the cheap because he was hurt.

And when did we “produce no doubt stars”? Outside of the ‘06-‘08 drafting window, when did we have this steady stream of stars coming through the system? Remember the “joke” about not producing an all-star OFer for something like 40 years? It is very difficult to judge drafting prowess. Both because the data will not be timely, but also because there are a lot of other factors going into the mix (trades, development ability, prioritizing different aspects, etc), but I have seen MULTIPLE studies that show the Giants have historically been one of the very worst drafting/developing teams all-time.

 

[msgkings322]

Just remembering a farm that got us Posey and Lincecum and Cain and Bumgarner and Sandoval...meanwhile these other teams keep bringing up dynamic young stars

 

[calsnowskier]

Timmeh and Bum were in that ‘06-’08 window. Cain was good, and ‘04 could be considered part of that window, to be fair. But outside of that, what do you got? And Panda wasn’t drafted (granted, I brought the “draft” into this discussion). Clark/Williams/Thompson were 40 years ago. Bonds, Mitchell and Kent were not Giants prospects. Neither were Aurelia or Snow.

Bart, Reynolds, Wheeler, Castillo, Villalona, Cabrera, Luciano…. Just a few big time bad moves off the top of my head. Most can individually be explained away (called up too early resulting in forcing our hand, give-to-get trade, developed well after we traded him, off-field issues, freak injury…), but at some point, you gotta just look at the train of failure and say “dayum”.

 

[Stokes1931]

Whiteside’s fault?

 

[SF11704]

Just my opinion .... and some observations ...
1. I'm probably one of the oldest members of this community. Been a fan for more than 70 years now. (just about 80 now). Seen quite a few few lean years, but this past decade had been very difficult for a Giant fan ...
2. We are actually not a 500 level team. The only year we ahve been over the 500 mark was 2021 and that was a fluke. Other than that year we have been under the 500 mark most of the time. a 500 record is being generous.
3. For me personally it all seemed to have started in the famous 2016 season. Something happened at the middle of that season.
4. IMHO I think the issue that has us where we are now is what MSG has been preaching for the past two years or more. We haven't been willing to spend with the elite teams and we have been left behind because of that decision. But ... that was then and this is now ... the landscape has changed ...
5. Money is still an important aspect of what is happening, but I don't think it is the driving force any longer. A top tier FA will get what they want from multiple sources. If I remember correctly Ohtani didn't even haggle over money. He just stated what he wanted and talked with the teams that would match that request. This is where we are now and it's not a good place to be in.
6. Players are now signing 'life long' contracts. 10 years or longer. This is what I feel is causing us all the issues. Would you rather sign a 10 year contract with the Giants for 330M or a 10 year contract with the Dodgers for 300M. How would you like to spend the last 10 years of your career? The Dodgers have evolved into a perennial winner while we seem to have moved in the other direction. This is what I feel the changing landscape of baseball now is. Money is no longer the main concern. They will get what they want for multiple offers, I think the key is .... they want to play for a winner. This is where we have the issue. I don't think any of the high end FAs see us as winners .... other than 2021 ,,,, we have not been winners .... we have to change that perception ... not sure how you do that in today's environment ...
7. Very tough position for SF owners and management. How do you change the perception what we are as a team ... Why would a high end FA want to play for us?

 

[stanford the manford]

For the '26 season, it's the players. This roster should not be the 2nd worst, and it wouldn't surprise me it we dip to the worst, record in the NL

Secondly this trajectory started in 2nd 1/2 2016, agreeing with SF11704 above. Since then the Giants have been on a 'let's just add a guy or two and maybe we'll get lucky' gameplan. 2021 we hit the luck jackpot. But there hasn't been a concerted plan to build a sustainable contender.

That said I do believe the contracts to JHL, Adames, Chapman, Devers, with the home grown Webbster were meant to be that foundation. For whatever reason the players aren't delivering.

My unfounded opinion on this team is 2 fold. This offense has way too many hitters prone to long slumps, it's just the way it's constructed. But it feels like there is something else lacking - no attempt for situational hitting, stupid base running, errors as a result of focus, blowing leads. Either it's a coaching thing, a clubhouse leadership thing, or players not giving a crap. I dunno.

Great to see the farm is well positioned. Very pleasantly surprised with Devers' defense. Susac and Casey are playing way above expectations. Hasse look capable. Eldrige is looking more and more like the real deal. There are bright spots.

Buster has a big job. '26 is a wipeout. '27 maybe a strike year. IMO he needs to get the Giants on a trajectory for '28 jelling into a '29 contender. It's unlikely Webb, Ray, Chapman, Adames, Devers, JHL will be the foundation in '29 going forward. So what's Buster to do?

I'd support almost anything except keep rolling the same roster out.

 

[LHG]

So who is PRIMARILY at fault for this shit show?

Farzan - Did he leave the cupboard so bare that this nose dive was inevitable? Did he so blow up the culture that there was no foundation that anyone coming in would be unable to find secure footing (players and management)?

Buster - He is a rookie when it comes to running/building a franchise. How much does he rely on Manasian? Is the roster construction Buster’s fault, or should that be put at the feet of Manasian?

Ownership - “We just want to break even”. That was a bad look quote. In reality, the thought doesn’t bother me. But that comment looked BAD. It planted a seed in the fan base reminding everyone that the Giants are a business, first and foremost. Fandom requires not looking under every rug or opening every closet. Dont remind the fans that the dust is under the rug and the monster actually lives in the closet.

Manasian - Fans forget about him, but HE is the General Manager. Buster gets the attention, but roster construction historically falls to the GM. How are the responsibilities divided in this front office?

Vitiello - giving him a MLB job was almost certainly a mistake. College kids are different than MLB stars. And his in-game decisions are becoming more and more head scratching. Why pinch hit for Cox in a blow out? Come on, man.

Players - When all the wheels fall off the car, I have a hard time blaming the receptionist at the dealership. But she did spill the coffee, so she isn’t without blame. But shouldn’t you be looking at the guy who hired her because of her tits instead of her office know-how?

I saw that in the box score from that game and wondered if Cox was hurt. Apparently not.

 

[stanford the manford]

I saw that in the box score from that game and wondered if Cox was hurt. Apparently not.

yet another head scratching TV decision. If we were logging them as and ... we'd need more paper on the side of the ledger

 

[msgkings322]

Buster Olney on the radio today said talking to other teams, no one will trade for Chapman or Adames or Devers. Chapman is the main one I would want them to dump but won’t be happening. Maybe trade Arraez as his deal ends this year. Ray also.

He said something interesting about Kyle Harrison. The kid looks great on Milwaukee, probably an all star. But he didn’t look that good here or on Boston. Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Tampa seem to be teams that know how to develop and unlock pitchers. We used to be that. How do we get it back?

As far as SF11704’s comment re free agents, some of it is wanting to play for a winner but there’s zero question that hitters do not want to play in our park and why would they? Would a free agent stud pitcher ever sign in Colorado? Thats why Devers needs to stay that’s the only way to get a bat is develop or trade.

 

[LHG]

Buster Olney on the radio today said talking to other teams, no one will trade for Chapman or Adames or Devers. Chapman is the main one I would want them to dump but won’t be happening. Maybe trade Arraez as his deal ends this year. Ray also.

He said something interesting about Kyle Harrison. The kid looks great on Milwaukee, probably an all star. But he didn’t look that good here or on Boston. Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Tampa seem to be teams that know how to develop and unlock pitchers. We used to be that. How do we get it back?

As far as SF11704’s comment re free agents, some of it is wanting to play for a winner but there’s zero question that hitters do not want to play in our park and why would they? Would a free agent stud pitcher ever sign in Colorado? Thats why Devers needs to stay that’s the only way to get a bat is develop or trade.

I don't get this whole idea that he needed to go elsewhere because he wasn't that good. He wasn't even 24 years old when he was traded by the Giants. Of course he is going to be a bit underwhelming at first. Not many pitchers figure out things in the big leagues before they are 25 years old. Maybe he was a bit arrogant and wouldn't listen to instruction but I am finding that hard to believe unless the two trades shook him up a bit and he finally yielded to instruction in Milwaukee. Or maybe the Giants didn't know how to harness his abilities and he was left to himself on how to figure things out.

As for the Red Sox, they also gave up awfully early on James Tibbs (much like the Giants did) and that also may come back to bite them. If he were in just about any other organization besides the Dodgers he would be in the big leagues by now.

 

[msgkings322]

I don't get this whole idea that he needed to go elsewhere because he wasn't that good. He wasn't even 24 years old when he was traded by the Giants. Of course he is going to be a bit underwhelming at first. Not many pitchers figure out things in the big leagues before they are 25 years old. Maybe he was a bit arrogant and wouldn't listen to instruction but I am finding that hard to believe unless the two trades shook him up a bit and he finally yielded to instruction in Milwaukee. Or maybe the Giants didn't know how to harness his abilities and he was left to himself on how to figure things out.

As for the Red Sox, they also gave up awfully early on James Tibbs (much like the Giants did) and that also may come back to bite them. If he were in just about any other organization besides the Dodgers he would be in the big leagues by now.

Olney’s point was more that teams like Milwaukee unlock these pitchers and the Giants (and Red Sox and others) don’t seem to be able to lately. We used to.

 

[Gatorchip]

Gargamel is is fault. He's not wearing his lucky underwear.

 

[calsnowskier]

I saw that in the box score from that game and wondered if Cox was hurt. Apparently not.

It was apparently a L/R thing.

Seriously. TV makes some odd choices.

 

[LHG]

It was apparently a L/R thing.

Seriously. TV makes some odd choices.

I think the jump from college ball to MLB is bigger than even some thought when he was hired. It is a very different game.

 

[calsnowskier]

I know Wash, Dusty and Boch have said they would remain hands off TV so he doesn’t feel the pressure of 3 HOF-level MLB managers breathing down his back, but is he reaching out to these guys for feedback? I legit don’t know. But these 3 are some MASSIVE assets that he has access to. I certainly hope he is utilizing those resources.

 

[SF11704]

I know Wash, Dusty and Boch have said they would remain hands off TV so he doesn’t feel the pressure of 3 HOF-level MLB managers breathing down his back, but is he reaching out to these guys for feedback? I legit don’t know. But these 3 are some MASSIVE assets that he has access to. I certainly hope he is utilizing those resources.

Interesting question. I'd have to assume he is or why did they retain these three resources for. But ... this begs another question ... an even more interesting one ... if these three resources are not capable of addressing the issue ... what the hell is the issue. If it is player personnel.itself.. it's going to be a very difficul parh out of this mess ..