What do you want to see from the front office this off season?

[Logicallylethal]

Everyday when I listen to KJR and there's discussion on the Mariners...fans are always calling in saying front office has to spend the big bucks...we HAVE to go out there and sign a big name...

Here's my take on that

Who should we have signed last year? Josh Hamilton? BJ Upton? Nick Swisher? Michael Bourn?

Josh Hamilton (5 years $125 mil)
- .249 21 hr 78 rbi (.737 ops...Justin Smoak .739 ops)

BJ Upton (5 years $75 mil)
- .184 9 hrs 26 rbi

Nick Swisher (4 years $56 mil)
- .246 21 hrs 61 rbi

Michael Bourn (4 years $48 mil)
- .260 6 hrs 48 rbi 22 sb (42 and 63 sb the years before that)


Are fans really that desperate for a "big splash" that they want the franchise to plunge a large amount of money and overpay for a player that's not gonna be that great? Free agency in baseball to me are a wash. If you want a solid player you have to pay them good money. If you want a good player you have to pay them great money. Usually all of the players that are good and worth the money sign extensions and never make it into free agency. It's the players seeking a big pay day like Hamilton and borderline guys like Upton and Swisher that make it through free agency.

So look...I understand the frustration. Trust me I'm just as frustrated as anyone here. But I don't think the solution is to blindly throw money at a big name simply for a big splash.

If the Mariners are ever going to be good again...it's not gonna be through free agency it's going through be through our farm system. We have a solid foundation of talent...we just need them to perform with more consistency

- James Paxton
- Taijuan Walker
- Dustin Ackley
- Justin Smoak
- Nick Franklin
- Brad Miller
- Mike Zunino

If Paxton and Walker can continue to pitch like they have the latter end of this year, our rotation is going to be sick. Two aces at the top, two young phenoms, and a solid young 5th

Feliix
Iwak
Paxton
Walker
Erasmo

As for our offense...yeah the overall numbers are bad but most of that has to do with inconsistency and just terrible hitting with risp.

Remember when Nick Franklin was hitting .270-280 with above avg hr power how good our offense looked? All it takes is a few of those guys to really put in some more consistency and our lineup would be so much different.

SS Brad Miller
CF Dustin Ackley
3B Kyle Seager
DH Kendrys Morales
1B Justin Smoak
2B Nick Franklin
LF Raul/Guti
C Mike Zunino
RF Michael Saunders

Looking at the names on paper it doesn't look very exciting. But try to envision that lineup with Ackley continuing to hit like he has the second half of the year. Envision the lineup with Justin Smoak continuing his success but with a bit more consistency. Envision the lineup with Nick Franklin returning to his .270-280 form with above avg power. And heck what if Zunino gives us 15-20 hrs next year with a .250-260 avg?

All of a sudden our lineup is above average. Combine that with an improved rotation and hopefully a healthier bullpen and now we have a pretty good young team.

 

[SeattleCoug]

What do you want to see from the front office this off season?

Well since going away doesn't seem like an option I will try and come up with something realistic.

I would like to see a solid 3 or 4 starter signed. Not a stop a stopgap innings eater like Joe Saunders or Kevin Millwood. Im tired of that sort of move. I just think you have to expect a drop off from Kuma and although Erasamo/Paxton/Walker show promise, they are still young and likely will be on an innings limit still next year.

Also I would like the leadoff hitter issue addressed. Is it Miller? Ackley? or do we sign someone.

I don't think you see Guti back and I hope Raul retires. Go out on a good year I hope. Outfield needs to be addressed probably need 2 outfielders.

I also think a decision needs to be made on Franklin/Ackley. I still think Ackley's most value is at 2nd and not in the outfield. I think one of them gets traded along with one of our young pitchers for an outfielder. Similair to the Upton deal but not exactly if that makes sense.

Lastly who is your closer? I think we can close the book on Tom being that guy. Is it Capps? Give a shot to Pryor if healthy? or sign someone?

I'll start by throwing those out there and let me know what you guys think.

 

[NWinAZ]

SS Brad Miller
CF Dustin Ackley
3B Kyle Seager
DH Kendrys Morales
1B Justin Smoak
2B Nick Franklin
LF Raul/Guti
C Mike Zunino
RF Michael Saunders

Looking at the names on paper it doesn't look very exciting. But try to envision that lineup with Ackley continuing to hit like he has the second half of the year. Envision the lineup with Justin Smoak continuing his success but with a bit more consistency. Envision the lineup with Nick Franklin returning to his .270-280 form with above avg power. And heck what if Zunino gives us 15-20 hrs next year with a .250-260 avg?

All of a sudden our lineup is above average. Combine that with an improved rotation and hopefully a healthier bullpen and now we have a pretty good young team.

As Mariners fans, we must stop thinking in terms of these young guys being our solution. No disrespect, but that lineup won't win you many games. Young players have to be the add on pieces until they become legit MLB hitters and you need to surround them with proven MLB veteran hitters. None of the guys in the current lineup, the non-veterans, have proven they are MLB hitters. They all have shown promise at one point or another, but none have shown the consistency you need in order to help take your lineup to the next level. We Mariner fans fall in love with names because we have nothing else to follow. Franklin starts off hot and he is called the 2B of the future. A few good weeks should not guarantee you anything in this game. The same can be said for any of our youngsters. If we want to win, we need 4 proven hitters minimum...period! Morales fills that criteria. Now we just need to sign him and add three more to even have a chance to compete. The one major problem is how do we get thee guys? Trade? Then you are said to be mortgaging the future. Free Agency? Ya, good one. Pence just re-signed with Giants for $18M a year for 5 years. Are we willing to spend tat kind of money? Are they willing to even come here? Draft? 5 year wait with no guarantees.

My answer; Hire a proven winner of a GM who hires a proven winner of manager and then wait another 5 years and hope it all falls into place because this route we are on is a slow train to nowhere.

 

[Logicallylethal]

What three "good veteran hitter" are we going to sign?

You mentioned Hunter Pence...and it establishes my original point...any good hitter worth signing never makes it to free agency. And he signed for 5 years 90 mil with the giants...if we wanted to lure him to Seattle it would have to have been 6-7 years for 120 mil. Is that a price worth paying for 20-25 hrs?

Look at the playoff teams...most of their core guys are homegrown!

Braves
- Freddie Freeman, Jason Heyward, Brian Mccann
- Mike Minor, Kris Medlen, Julio Teheran, Craig Kimbrel

Cardinals
- Allen Craig, Yadier Molina, Matt Carpenter, Matt Adams, Jon Jay
- Adam Waniwright, Lance Lynn, Shelby Miller

Rays
- Evan Longoria, Ben Zobrist, Desmond Jennings
- David Price, Matt Moore, Alex Cobb

Pirates
- Andrew Mccutchen, Pedro Alvarez, Starling Marte, Neil Walker
- Jeff Locke, Gerrit Cole, Charlie Morton

Rangers
- Elvis Andrus, Ian Kinsler, Mitch Moreland, Nelson Cruz
- Derek Holland, Yu Darvish, Alexi Ogando, Martin Perez

Reds
- Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips
- Homer Bailey, Mike Leake, Mat Latos, Tony Cingrani


All of these teams have "supplemented" their young talent with some veteran players along the way to push them over the edge...but it all starts with the young foundation. NO team with the exception of the Yankees and Dodgers can afford to build their team up from Free Agency or taking on contracts through trades.

So my point is...yes I want to add a few veteran players to supplement our roster as well. But overpaying to add a couple nick swishers to the lineup isn't going to turn us into contenders over night. If we really want to contend again...we are going to need those young guys to develop into hitters.

 

[SeattleCoug]

The reality of the situation is if we are gonna land any decent free agent, we will have to severely overspend to get them. This isn't a desirable place to play right now. Period. Upton didn't want to come here and Wedge doesn't want to manage here.

My answer; Hire a proven winner of a GM who hires a proven winner of manager and then wait another 5 years and hope it all falls into place because this route we are on is a slow train to nowhere.

I agree. We had that a while back with Pinella and Gillick but then Chuck and Howie killed that when they wouldn't open their wallets. Not sure if they will ever be able to get a combo like that again because Chuck/Howie only hire puppets and scapegoats, not good baseball minds who have the chance to speak negatively about them.

 

[NWinAZ]

Amen!!!!!!

 

[NWinAZ]

"Look at the playoff teams...most of their core guys are homegrown"

You are missing one simple point with all your examples of this; Those players were good. You can't just say 'You win with home grown players' because it just isn't that easy. That is why teams that don't get veterans also lose forever...see KC, SD, HOU, SEA, and so on. They use home grown and still lose. Angels got players from outside their organization and won. They got guys from outside their organization and lost. People like to just remember the losing part and say you can't do it that way.

Also, take your list and then add the guys from outside their organization and see what a role they played in their winning. My point being is that you can't and won't win with youngsters as the key and sole players in your lineup. The team you listed didn't do that, but the teams I listed did and in some cases are still trying that. Look at our first real legit team in 1995 and you won't see a bunch of rookies in key roles. In fact, you will see seasoned players at that time with Griffey being the youngest everyday player at 25...6 years into his career and we don't have any Griffey's.

My point again is that 6 to 7 players under 2000 career AB's respectively in the majors playing everyday for you rarely works if ever. You can use the Rays plan which took over a decade to perfect and be viable team but also with a lot of bad baseball before it...okay we got that part down pat.

And the Rangers example is stretching it since most on there came via trade, free agency, or was signed as a veteran from another country and not really home grown.

Agreed we need as much young talent as possible, but getting just one to make you competitive is like 100-to-1. Getting 6 to 7 to develop in the majors all at the same time is about as mathematically likely as Howie Lincoln being named CEO of the year.

 

[Logicallylethal]

Brad Miller 2 hrs including a grand slam

Smoak with a big 2 run shot

Nick with 2 hits

Ackley/Zunino with a hit

...call it wishful thinking but I still have faith in these guys.

There's no denying the talent is there. They just need to find some consistency. Supplement these guys with Morales and maybe another hitter with that young up and coming rotation and all of a sudden our team isn't that bad.

To be honest...I wouldn't mind bringing back Morse for a cheap price. If Morse had continued playing like he had in April along with Raul, Morales and Seager...we would have our four dependable hr/rbi contributors in the lineup to go along with the young guys developing.

We're not as far away from competing as most people think. I totally disagree with scrapping this team and starting all over again and see what happens in 5 years. You only do that if there is no talent in the farm

 

[cezero]

this team is more than a dozen solid pieces away from being a .500 team, much less competing for anything.

going after real big name free agents (not like morse or ibanez) isn't the answer. that's the step a true rebuilding team takes when farm talent starts panning out to supplement them. pretending most of these youngsters are "talented" and "almost there" in terms of being a foundation for a contending team in the future is akin to believing in the tooth fairy.

nobody in the FO will ever be held accountable for the miserable failure of a rebuilding plan we've seen on display for the past several years. howie and chuck are still managing to make money for nintendo. this team is doa forevermore under current ownership.

it's nothing but fake rebuilding year after year and the idiots who fall for it.

i'm not angry about it at all. it's the sad reality of this team. i'm looking forward to seeing seager go on to a real MLB team when he hits FA and have a nice above average career. maybe miller and franklin might end up making it, too. if so, good for them.

 

[wazzu31]

What three "good veteran hitter" are we going to sign?

You mentioned Hunter Pence...and it establishes my original point...any good hitter worth signing never makes it to free agency. And he signed for 5 years 90 mil with the giants...if we wanted to lure him to Seattle it would have to have been 6-7 years for 120 mil. Is that a price worth paying for 20-25 hrs?

Look at the playoff teams...most of their core guys are homegrown!

Braves
- Freddie Freeman, Jason Heyward, Brian Mccann
- Mike Minor, Kris Medlen, Julio Teheran, Craig Kimbrel

Cardinals
- Allen Craig, Yadier Molina, Matt Carpenter, Matt Adams, Jon Jay
- Adam Waniwright, Lance Lynn, Shelby Miller

Rays
- Evan Longoria, Ben Zobrist, Desmond Jennings
- David Price, Matt Moore, Alex Cobb

Pirates
- Andrew Mccutchen, Pedro Alvarez, Starling Marte, Neil Walker
- Jeff Locke, Gerrit Cole, Charlie Morton

Rangers
- Elvis Andrus, Ian Kinsler, Mitch Moreland, Nelson Cruz
- Derek Holland, Yu Darvish, Alexi Ogando, Martin Perez

Reds
- Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips
- Homer Bailey, Mike Leake, Mat Latos, Tony Cingrani


All of these teams have "supplemented" their young talent with some veteran players along the way to push them over the edge...but it all starts with the young foundation. NO team with the exception of the Yankees and Dodgers can afford to build their team up from Free Agency or taking on contracts through trades.

So my point is...yes I want to add a few veteran players to supplement our roster as well. But overpaying to add a couple nick swishers to the lineup isn't going to turn us into contenders over night. If we really want to contend again...we are going to need those young guys to develop into hitters.

Solid point except on all those teams you listened their is an all star, what positional all star do the M's have that is homegrown. This is the exact reason you build a farm system, to try and keep as much as possible but make smart trades to bring in more talent. With the "big 3" 1/2 with Maurer there is zero reason that all 4 are still in the organization, with them having Felix and if they are seriously trying. The fews moves Jack has made has shown why is not GM material.

-Figgins, you don't sign a big deal to a guy who's strengths are what you already have in Ichiro then change his game.
-The Fister trade obviously
-The Cliff Lee deal I can't blame too much
-Pineda for Montero, how is their any logical reason in trading a pitcher who has massive value for a young "hitter with no position" If you are trading for a stud with no position then that is a massive deal like the Cliff Lee/Fister deal
-Allowing his closers to big up huge value but not deal them when their value is sky high. The team does not need a closer.
-No deals being done at all during the all star break. Perez should've been gone, Morales should've been traded with Pederson, Smoak and Montero in the system, with Ackley/Franklin should've dealt. Collecting all this "talent" for the exact same positions makes no sense

 

[SeattleCoug]

The fews moves Jack has made has shown why is not GM material.

The one thing Z has done is rebuild the farm system and he played a role of doing that for Milwaukee as well.
However he has been mostly horrible with free agents and trades. This leads me to believe that he may not be GM material and rather should go into scouting. However that makes to much for Chuck and Howie to figure out.

 

[Baseballnut77]

Brad Miller 2 hrs including a grand slam

Smoak with a big 2 run shot

Nick with 2 hits

Ackley/Zunino with a hit

...call it wishful thinking but I still have faith in these guys.

There's no denying the talent is there. They just need to find some consistency. Supplement these guys with Morales and maybe another hitter with that young up and coming rotation and all of a sudden our team isn't that bad.

To be honest...I wouldn't mind bringing back Morse for a cheap price. If Morse had continued playing like he had in April along with Raul, Morales and Seager...we would have our four dependable hr/rbi contributors in the lineup to go along with the young guys developing.

We're not as far away from competing as most people think. I totally disagree with scrapping this team and starting all over again and see what happens in 5 years. You only do that if there is no talent in the farm

well someone gets it you have miller/franklin/zunino all in their first years in the bigs and while they didn't set the world on fire they did learn and will be better next year because of it. pax and walker come up and show that they just might belong up here next year giving you all of the sudden 4/5 of a strong rotation. Now I know every one wants to win right now and rightfully so but you do not take such a young team and give them that small of a sample and just say "sorry none of you are Griffey so we are blowing this thing up"

 

[wazzu31]

The one thing Z has done is rebuild the farm system and he played a role of doing that for Milwaukee as well.
However he has been mostly horrible with free agents and trades. This leads me to believe that he may not be GM material and rather should go into scouting. However that makes to much for Chuck and Howie to figure out.

Rebuilding the farm system is great but he is not the director of scouting or player development. And I kind of disagree with his building of the farm system, granted Gillick and Bavasi killed the farm system in terms of rankings but Jack has/had 3 huge trade chips that should've instantly got there farm system to the cream of the crop with Fister, Lee and if he would act what he preaches he would've dealt Felix instead of taking 1/3 of the team's salary on him.

In any major city Jack would've lost his job for the Fister deal, would've been fire for the handling of the Lee then Pineda deals and then in most franchises that are running their organization like a low revenue club he would've been fired for signing Felix.

 

[unlvmariners]

In any major city Jack would've lost his job for the Fister deal, would've been fire for the handling of the Lee then Pineda deals and then in most franchises that are running their organization like a low revenue club he would've been fired for signing Felix.

Because Jack Z's bosses are who they are they probably like deals like these.

 

[johnson]

Jays fan here...I also like the Mariners and the similarities between our two organizations is painful.

I've dealt with this Kool-Aid about how amazing our farm system was for years and that was the only way to get better. People cited other teams (not realizing the obvious that this is OTHER teams) to back this up. Our farm system proved to be massively over-rated. The team did not get better and spun it's wheels for years. "Just one more year" "Travis Snider is going to break out" blah blah blah.

The M's have a terrible offense...again. They clearly need to sign some proven bats in the off-season. Got some nice pop right now, but guys need to get on base more to make the lineup dangerous...and the guys on the bases need to be faster. For the M's, it seems you've had a great rotation for a few years but this year after Felix and the Bear...it's horrible...not Blue Jays bad...but bad.

I disagree big name players won't come to Seattle. People said the same thing about Toronto and for better reasons (taxes in Canada, etc.). Yeah, Justin Upton didn't want to go there but you should be counting your blessings there. Anyways, this past off-season the Jays landed Reyes, Johnson, Buehrle and Dickey. It can be done.

Yes, it's been a complete disaster...but they got big name guys. The obvious key is not just spending money, but doing it intelligently. That's the GM's job. And he should at least try to do it this off-season in Seattle because failure to do so guarantees another forgettable season. I'm disgusted by our season, but happy the effort was FINALLY made.

 

[cezero]

Jays fan here...I also like the Mariners and the similarities between our two organizations is painful.

I've dealt with this Kool-Aid about how amazing our farm system was for years and that was the only way to get better. People cited other teams (not realizing the obvious that this is OTHER teams) to back this up. Our farm system proved to be massively over-rated. The team did not get better and spun it's wheels for years. "Just one more year" "Travis Snider is going to break out" blah blah blah.

The M's have a terrible offense...again. They clearly need to sign some proven bats in the off-season. Got some nice pop right now, but guys need to get on base more to make the lineup dangerous...and the guys on the bases need to be faster. For the M's, it seems you've had a great rotation for a few years but this year after Felix and the Bear...it's horrible...not Blue Jays bad...but bad.

I disagree big name players won't come to Seattle. People said the same thing about Toronto and for better reasons (taxes in Canada, etc.). Yeah, Justin Upton didn't want to go there but you should be counting your blessings there. Anyways, this past off-season the Jays landed Reyes, Johnson, Buehrle and Dickey. It can be done.

Yes, it's been a complete disaster...but they got big name guys. The obvious key is not just spending money, but doing it intelligently. That's the GM's job. And he should at least try to do it this off-season in Seattle because failure to do so guarantees another forgettable season. I'm disgusted by our season, but happy the effort was FINALLY made.

I like a lot of your points.

Outsiders like you are almost always are more knowledgeable than M's so-called fans, who get the vapors when dealing with actual facts.

I marvel at how many so-called M's fans just vapidly comment about how the "rebuilding" of the farm is yielding a foundation that will contribute to a .500 club within the next half decade, much less a club that can contend for pennants.

I really do wish I were stupid enough to live in their fantasy wonderland and believe that 90% of the garbage the wonderous farm has barfed up over the past 18 months will "develop" at some mystical point in the future.

I'm not even angry about the M's being awful now and for at least another decade. It's a fact. The only thing to enjoy will be seeing the precious few decent guys go on to real MLB teams and succeed...well, unless something miraculous like new ownership happens, and fast.

 

[Thisnamewasntaken]

I like a lot of your points.

Outsiders like you are almost always are more knowledgeable than M's so-called fans, who get the vapors when dealing with actual facts.

I marvel at how many so-called M's fans just vapidly comment about how the "rebuilding" of the farm is yielding a foundation that will contribute to a .500 club within the next half decade, much less a club that can contend for pennants.

I really do wish I were stupid enough to live in their fantasy wonderland and believe that 90% of the garbage the wonderous farm has barfed up over the past 18 months will "develop" at some mystical point in the future.

I'm not even angry about the M's being awful now and for at least another decade. It's a fact. The only thing to enjoy will be seeing the precious few decent guys go on to real MLB teams and succeed...well, unless something miraculous like new ownership happens, and fast.

I bought into the youth movement but this isn't rebuilding. This is being complacent and throwing dung at the wall and hoping it sticks. I've never gone into an offseason feeling as lost as I do now. I was on the edge of abandoning Jack Z and when he tried for Upton I was done. Who knows anymore, I'm pretty much done with this roster too. I'm thinking keep Zunino, Seager & Walker. Who cares about the rest of them. THANK GOD WE HAVE THE SEAHAWKS!

 

[blstoker]

All right, I'll take a swing

1) Sign Jose Dariel Abreu. 27 year old first baseman defected from Cuba in August. His numbers in Cuba are impressive, but that means nothing. Really, the M's need to show they're trying and bringing in one of the best prospects in world baseball may generate a lot of buzz, and is an option for those wanting to replace Smoak (in my opinion, one of the few actual options that are on the market right now).

2) Sign Jacoby Ellsbury to a multi year deal to be the lead off hitter.

3) Buy out Gutierrez's contract for $500,000, offer him veteran league minnimum. If he accepts, make him 4th outfielder, if he says no, let him walk.

4) If #1 doesn't happen, re-sign Kendrys Morales. If #1 does happen (highly unlikely) then try to re-sign at much lower price tag than $13 million.

5) Trade Ackley, Beavan, Maurer, Montero and Guillermo Pimentel to Marlins for Giancarlo Stanton.

6) Trade Saunders, Smoak and Truinfel to Cubs for Travis Wood.

7) Sign Delmon Young

If all this happens (and I expect none of it to actually happen) the team could look like this:

Ellsbury CF
Miller SS
Seager 3B
Morales DH
Stanton RF
Abreu 1B
Young LF
Zunino C
Franklin 2B

Hernandez
Iwakuma
Wood
Paxton
Walker

Again, I doubt much if any of this would happen, for several reasons.

1) Who really knows what the Cubs or Marlins would want for the players I'd like, and though I feel the trades would be fair, that really has no bearing on what will really happen. Not to mention that in the trades I am giving young MLB ready players, but not exactly consistently effective MLB players.

2) The team may not want to spend the money required to make this happen. Everyone knows that the team is cheap, and there's still enough young talent in this scenario that the team would still be a little streaky. It could cost $10 million or more for Abreu, close to that for Ellsbury and Young would be somewhere in the 7-9 range all while Morales could be costing over $13 million. Wood would go through arbitration, and who knows how that's gonna affect his cost (and trade value for that matter). I really don't see the FO spending that kind of money.

3) Free agents don't tend to want to come to Seattle.

4) The team hasn't been this aggressive in the off season for at least a decade.

And I'm sure there are more reasons, but I'm just gonna leave it at that.