• Have something to say? Register Now! and be posting in minutes!

Verlander retiring at season's end - is 200 the new 300?

PolarVortex

Nanook of the North
22,071
10,077
1,033
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Location
Mt Rainier
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The recent news dropping of Verlander's pending retirement got me to thinking: will there ever be another 300 game winner? Innings pitched and quality starts seem to be the new golden stats for MLB pitchers. If he averages 20-25 quality starts in a season, you are most likely looking at a $300 million arm.

From the first season that baseball stats were compiled, 1876, up thru 2005, a span of 130 years, baseball had at least one 20-game winner every season except for seasons shortened by strikes. Since 2006, a span of 20 years, there have only been 31 20-game winners with 9 seasons in which there were only one or no 20-game winners. Last year, for the first time ever in MLB history, the sport went two consecutive full seasons without a 20-game winner. And unless some pitcher goes on a tear (doubtful this late in the season), we will see a third consecutive season with no 20-game winner.

Under current popular strategy of how to manage a starting pitcher, a staff ace or #2 in the rotation may average only 5 2/3rds to 6 1/3rds innings per outing. That leaves 8-10 out to the bullpen which has lead to a rash of no decisions by starting pitchers, and cuts down significantly on the their opportunity to secure a win.

15 wins is the new 20 wins. 13 wins is the new 17-18 wins. A pitcher would have to average 15 wins a year over 20 years to reach 300 career wins. Ain't. Gonna. Happen. And it's doubtful we even see another 250 game winner unless advances in sports arm health and a radical change in current strategy are employed.

One thing I can see that could change things: I could see some young phenom come off a college campus as a guy who throws 80% knuckle balls, racks up a 120-135 pitch count due to the minimal pressure on his pitching arm, and is trusted to get thru a lineup 3-4 times. Under those conditions he could average 21-23 outs per game. If he is successful and younger guys start copying his style, then we may see a return to 300 game winners. Otherwise, I don't see it happening. No active player right now, regardless of age, has a prayer of getting there.
 

Xeliou66

Well-Known Member
16,697
8,594
533
Joined
Jul 19, 2023
Location
Florida
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Yeah we’ll never see a 300 game winner again
 

broncosmitty

Banned in Europe
99,606
34,860
1,033
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Location
Almost Paradise
Hoopla Cash
$ 21,205.54
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
JV was the last guy with a shot at it.

Unless the rules get changed for what counts as a Win.
 

ThomasTomasz

Well-Known Member
2,918
1,172
173
Joined
Sep 28, 2023
Location
Annapolis MD
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
JV was the last guy with a shot at it.

Unless the rules get changed for what counts as a Win.
This is exactly what I think is going to happen. Qualifications for starts, especially with openers, is going to be revisited at some point. Also, with the way that MLB is wanting pitchers to max out velocity and spin rates, they’re definitely going to do that to protect arms, and look at more creative ways to use pitchers beyond how they’re doing it now.
 

navamind

Well-Known Member
25,147
7,090
533
Joined
May 15, 2012
Location
NJ
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
yes
 

Cedrique

Well-Known Member
21,926
6,671
533
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 950.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
JV was the last guy with a shot at it.

Unless the rules get changed for what counts as a Win.
I hope they don't change the rules for a win. It would minimize the fact that the job for a starter was much harder than it is now. Today's starters should just be happy that they get paid a million bucks a start to go out and pitch 5 1/3 innings every 5 or 6 days. Also, get off my lawn!
 

steveringo

People's Front of Judea
30,407
21,372
1,033
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Location
Winchestertonfieldville
Hoopla Cash
$ 200.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I blame Bill James
I don't see this as a Bill James issue... it is more of a technology issue. The players are simply much better than even a couple decades ago. Intense strength training, focus on pinpoint delivery, etc. There is much more available to hone your skills. Batters and pitchers simply put much more into their craft. This leads to greater wear and tear.

As much as I'd love to see another Bartolo Colon or Rich Garces, the days of out of shape players (and you can't pull fat) is over.
 

nynasty

nynasty
9,260
3,964
293
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Location
The Ancient City
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,181.82
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Pitchers logging 200 innings in a season is soon to be a thing of the past too.

Only 3 guys did it last year. 20 years ago 45 guys did it.
 

redseat

Well-Known Member
62,586
12,718
1,033
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 500.33
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Yeah we’ll never see a 300 game winner again

Nope we will not. I mean the next "closet" is what Skubal and he has what 75 wins?
 

Pure Steel

Well-Known Member
21,535
24,612
1,033
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Location
NJ
Hoopla Cash
$ 100.85
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Pitchers logging 200 innings in a season is soon to be a thing of the past too.

Only 3 guys did it last year. 20 years ago 45 guys did it.

The players are so much better now and can’t pitch 175 innings…..
 

Hotel Security

Well-Known Member
2,352
897
113
Joined
Feb 26, 2026
Location
Detroit
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Like folks said, a better question is to look at the number of innings pitched by Verlander and ask if anyone will come close.

Given I've been able to watch a majority of games by both Verlander and Skubal, it's like night and day between the two given JV was a ironhorse who could go 110 pitches like it was nothing and was usually a lock to go at least 7 innings, if not 8 or 9. I feel a big value of an ace is making it so you don't even have to worry about the bullpen and it seems modern pitchers just can't do this anymore. It kinda makes me value them less in a sense.

>Maybe they are just brittle bitches?

I assume it's the youth ball conditioning them to be unable to go. Kids are shut down after 40/50 pitches no matter what and then can't pitch again after that for another five days or something. No one's even allowed to go deep in a game even if they could.
 

obxyankeefan

Well-Known Member
26,609
11,288
1,033
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Location
Not where I want to be
Hoopla Cash
$ 63,137.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I don't see this as a Bill James issue... it is more of a technology issue. The players are simply much better than even a couple decades ago. Intense strength training, focus on pinpoint delivery, etc. There is much more available to hone your skills. Batters and pitchers simply put much more into their craft. This leads to greater wear and tear.

As much as I'd love to see another Bartolo Colon or Rich Garces, the days of out of shape players (and you can't pull fat) is over.


I was playing. Sabrmetrics (Bill James) doesn't like pitcher wins.

Truthfully I have always blamed Tony Larussa and Dave Duncan for starting the pitch count with the late 80s A's
 

calsnowskier

Sarcastic F-wad
70,042
22,171
1,033
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
San Diego
Hoopla Cash
$ 2,900.09
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Wins has always been a trivial stat. People just didn’t realize it until the last 30 years or so.

JV is a no-doubt first ballot HOFer. Who cares how many “wins” he has?
 

calsnowskier

Sarcastic F-wad
70,042
22,171
1,033
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
San Diego
Hoopla Cash
$ 2,900.09
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Like folks said, a better question is to look at the number of innings pitched by Verlander and ask if anyone will come close.

Given I've been able to watch a majority of games by both Verlander and Skubal, it's like night and day between the two given JV was a ironhorse who could go 110 pitches like it was nothing and was usually a lock to go at least 7 innings, if not 8 or 9. I feel a big value of an ace is making it so you don't even have to worry about the bullpen and it seems modern pitchers just can't do this anymore. It kinda makes me value them less in a sense.

>Maybe they are just brittle bitches?

I assume it's the youth ball conditioning them to be unable to go. Kids are shut down after 40/50 pitches no matter what and then can't pitch again after that for another five days or something. No one's even allowed to go deep in a game even if they could.
I have always been a believer that IP is a MUCH more important stat than wins. Hell, it might be more important than ERA.

At the end of the day, the pitchers job is to record outs. How he gets there is pretty much unimportant.
 

navamind

Well-Known Member
25,147
7,090
533
Joined
May 15, 2012
Location
NJ
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Wins has always been a trivial stat. People just didn’t realize it until the last 30 years or so.

JV is a no-doubt first ballot HOFer. Who cares how many “wins” he has?

I only "care" at all because it would have been cool to see him get to 300 wins, and we probably won't see many make it to 250. That's the extent of how much I care.

I look at IP/ERA/ERA+/WHIP first, and then look at other stats (K/BB rates, HR/9, FIP/xFIP)
 

calsnowskier

Sarcastic F-wad
70,042
22,171
1,033
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
San Diego
Hoopla Cash
$ 2,900.09
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I only "care" at all because it would have been cool to see him get to 300 wins, and we probably won't see many make it to 250. That's the extent of how much I care.

I look at IP/ERA/ERA+/WHIP first, and then look at other stats (K/BB rates, HR/9, FIP/xFIP)
All stats mentioned after “IP” are just ways to accomplish… “IP”s

End of the day, it is the only stat that matters for pitchers.
 
Top