Trouble in Paradise - Bates

[CrashDavisSports]

Honestly, Not sure what I think of this situation. Jesse Bates is the leader of our defense, but he is probably looking for 90 million dollars. We have never come close to giving anyone that kind of money, except our QB's since Palmer. I think we need to sign him, but I guess ownership is making him prove it two years in a row before investing that kind of money in him. I get that. He has been trending upwards and only last year was he pro-bowl worthy, but still didn't make it. Make sure he can do it two years in a row, and then negotiate...if things get a little out of control then, you can always franchise tag him. Which no doubt the Bengals would use if they had on him.

However, how does that affect his attitude towards the team after he has become the NFLPA rep for the team? Just curious as to what others think on the situation.

PS...Our first preseason game is tomorrow, time to start ramping the message board topics back up, right?

 

[cincygrad]

Bates and his agent have no leverage. He will make 2.1 million this year on his regular contract. And he will make whatever the franchise tag number is for a safety the next year. The combination of those two years of income is not even close to what he could make if he signed a compromise deal with the Bengals right now - That is, the Bengals don't need offer him a contract to make him the highest paid safety. They should just offer him enough to be in the top 10%. If he signs a 4 year deal he could be an FA again at age 28 - Still time for another big payday. If he goes the route of franchise tag, the first time he'll hit the FA market will be at age 26 - Which means he'll likely only get one big payday in his career....And that is only if production stays high and he doesn't get hurt.

People will criticize the Bengals here, but this is a situation where they shouldn't just throw away cash. They hold all the cards and should play them. I'll also note that there is a month left and this report reeks of an agent or a team member dropping this news to create leverage. I just don't know why the Bengals need to bite.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Bates and his agent have no leverage. He will make 2.1 million this year on his regular contract. And he will make whatever the franchise tag number is for a safety the next year. The combination of those two years of income is not even close to what he could make if he signed a compromise deal with the Bengals right now - That is, the Bengals don't need offer him a contract to make him the highest paid safety. They should just offer him enough to be in the top 10%. If he signs a 4 year deal he could be an FA again at age 28 - Still time for another big payday. If he goes the route of franchise tag, the first time he'll hit the FA market will be at age 26 - Which means he'll likely only get one big payday in his career....And that is only if production stays high and he doesn't get hurt.

People will criticize the Bengals here, but this is a situation where they shouldn't just throw away cash. They hold all the cards and should play them. I'll also note that there is a month left and this report reeks of an agent or a team member dropping this news to create leverage. I just don't know why the Bengals need to bite.

I can appreciate that take. Just hope not many players on this team are Xavian Howard like.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Jamal Adams just made this picture much more muddy. I really think the Bengals reacted too late. He has only gotten better and better, so it wasn't a one year fluke. Now Adams is setting the market way higher than the Bengals will be willing to pay for a safety, or at least the old Bengals anyways.

Pray this gets done sooner rather than later.

What is reasonable for Bates now? $14 to $15 million a year? 4 years? Give him a chance to sign another lucrative deal at 28 or 29?

 

[DanBengalfan]

at least Bates isn't complaining about gatorade.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Jesse Bates has to get re-signed, but I am afraid now he will be far and away the highest paid Bengal of all time outside Palmer and Dalton, and while I am "okay" with that, not sure even the Katie Blackburn run Bengals are that motivated to sign that contract. He is going to get a 5 year / $85 million dollar deal with about $40 million guaranteed, not all paid in signing bonus, but a good chunk up front and yearly bonuses attached, accelerated if he is cut or traded.

 

[cincygrad]

I don't know.... I think his agent waited as the other safeties signed to increase Bates market. I now think its at the point where if his agent wants him to be the highest paid safety, you need to balk at the request and just let him play out his deal. The franchise tag on a safety is affordable enough for one year. That gives you 2 more seasons of Bates. After 5 years, if he is holding out for that sort of money you probably just let him walk and reload.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I don't know.... I think his agent waited as the other safeties signed to increase Bates market. I now think its at the point where if his agent wants him to be the highest paid safety, you need to balk at the request and just let him play out his deal. The franchise tag on a safety is affordable enough for one year. That gives you 2 more seasons of Bates. After 5 years, if he is holding out for that sort of money you probably just let him walk and reload.

Agreed.

Now, if the Bengals start winning games, the defense picks up, and he becomes an All-Pro kind of player - then I think you look at it, maybe...but the Bengals have always done well with signing these kids of players. Usually because they know that, while the up front money may not be as much, they are almost 100% certain to see the last year of the deal. The Bengals rarely cut anyone with more than 1 year remaining on a deal - meaning that Bates long-term would likely see more actual money, even if it mean taking less on paper.

And if he's smart, he'll realize that as well. The majority of money on a contract is bogus because the player is never going to see that amount. If the NFL ever moved to guaranteed contracts - contract totals would shrink nearly in half, because no way someone is going to extend out a player past their prime years for 5 times the current market. It'll never happen, because this allows teams to get around the cap - just look at NO and Taysum Hill, but announced contract money means very little.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I don't know.... I think his agent waited as the other safeties signed to increase Bates market. I now think its at the point where if his agent wants him to be the highest paid safety, you need to balk at the request and just let him play out his deal. The franchise tag on a safety is affordable enough for one year. That gives you 2 more seasons of Bates. After 5 years, if he is holding out for that sort of money you probably just let him walk and reload.

Really hard to replace your best defensive player on the team, who is always in on the play, captain, leader, can do any role. He is an outstanding player. You can sign someone else, but you can't really replace him. That defense better take massive strides forwards if we are going to have to learn to live with our Bates. That is almost, but not quite as extreme, as losing Burrow on the offensive side of the ball.

 

[cincygrad]

Really hard to replace your best defensive player on the team, who is always in on the play, captain, leader, can do any role. He is an outstanding player. You can sign someone else, but you can't really replace him. That defense better take massive strides forwards if we are going to have to learn to live with our Bates. That is almost, but not quite as extreme, as losing Burrow on the offensive side of the ball.

I didn't say you were replacing him. Play him for another two seasons - Lets see if he's really that good. I'd be fine paying him as one of the top safeties in the league right now - I would not be fine paying him absurd money just so he's the "top paid" guy at his position. He has no leverage.... And aside from the Bengals hyping him to be the best, there are other safeties that might be better.

 

[cincygrad]

And please don't compare losing a safety like Bates to losing your starting qb. That is ridiculous. The Bengals have been a bottom 5 defense each of the three years Bates has been on the team. I'm sure they can manage that sort of production without him.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

And please don't compare losing a safety like Bates to losing your starting qb. That is ridiculous. The Bengals have been a bottom 5 defense each of the three years Bates has been on the team. I'm sure they can manage that sort of production without him.

You are not wrong about the defense. I didn't mean to make it sound like he was as important as the QB, but he is basically the QB of the defense. Doesn't have same value, but hard to lose none the less. Plus, he provides much more than just on field talent, he is a true leader, organizer and captain of that defense. I am not saying you and 78 are wrong, only that if we are going to have to learn to live without him, the rest of the defense better really step it up. I agree about him no getting #1 safety money, but $85 million seems to be around top 3 money right now. Cap increases will continue to make positional value stupid contract wise over the next several years.

 

[BKBroiler9000]

I love Jessie Bates as much as the next guy, but let’s get real. He’s a damn good player. But he’s a safety. Is he worth the money he will want at his position? He’s not Ed Reed. He’s not singlehandedly altering games to a point that you can’t live without the guy.

Everybody talks about Jamal Adams who just got paid. What irreplaceable element did he add to the Seahawks defense last year? And notice how the Jets sucked with him, and sucked the same without him on their defense.

 

[cincygrad]

I love Jessie Bates as much as the next guy, but let’s get real. He’s a damn good player. But he’s a safety. Is he worth the money he will want at his position? He’s not Ed Reed. He’s not singlehandedly altering games to a point that you can’t live without the guy.

Everybody talks about Jamal Adams who just got paid. What irreplaceable element did he add to the Seahawks defense last year? And notice how the Jets sucked with him, and sucked the same without him on their defense.

I agree. I don't see many game-changing guys playing safety or corner right now in the modern NFL. Years ago, people like Ed Reed or Troy P. could wreck an entire game. And a guy like Darrel Revis could erase a side of the field.

These days I think the positions you overpay for are pass rushers. They seem to have more impact on the effectiveness of the defense. Don't get me wrong - You need a good secondary. I just think its more a sum of all the parts rather than one player.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I agree. I don't see many game-changing guys playing safety or corner right now in the modern NFL. Years ago, people like Ed Reed or Troy P. could wreck an entire game. And a guy like Darrel Revis could erase a side of the field.

These days I think the positions you overpay for are pass rushers. They seem to have more impact on the effectiveness of the defense. Don't get me wrong - You need a good secondary. I just think its more a sum of all the parts rather than one player.

Overpay for All-Pro talent , i.e. game-changers, at skill positions and along the lines (both O and D).

No matter the direction of how football is played, passing league, running league, it starts up front for both offense and defense with the lines.

You either have to protect the QB and get after the QB, or you have to open up big running lanes, and shut down the running lanes. The better you are up front, the better the trickle-down effect is for the rest of the unit. You can get more from less at other areas with top tier OL/DL play.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Well, by not resigning him, it gives us two years to find out if he can become that guy with the franchise tag. I think he can be that type of guy, but we have two years to see.

 

[DanBengalfan]

Bengals will wait to see if he gets injured or starts playing worse

 

[cincygrad]

Are we sure he's one of the best in football? I mean, I get how great he is as a teammate and he's a real leader on the team. But he hasn't had a great season. The touchdown to Kroft for the go-ahead score in the 4th quarter had to be a safety issue unless you believe a linebacker was going to be one-on-one with the tight-end 25 yards from the line of scrimmage.

I'm wondering if this is one case of the Bengals not overpaying for a guy they overhyped.

 

[DanBengalfan]

Not everyone is going to be happy here. That’s life. He will be gone.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Are we sure he's one of the best in football? I mean, I get how great he is as a teammate and he's a real leader on the team. But he hasn't had a great season. The touchdown to Kroft for the go-ahead score in the 4th quarter had to be a safety issue unless you believe a linebacker was going to be one-on-one with the tight-end 25 yards from the line of scrimmage.

I'm wondering if this is one case of the Bengals not overpaying for a guy they overhyped.

He has been fantastic up to this year. I am wondering if this extension is looming over him and causing him to be distracted.