Top 32 tournament Utley vs Herman

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

2Basemen Bracket is:

1 R Hornsby 6
32 J Franco 0

16 J Gordon 1
17 J Kent 4

8 B Grich 7
25 J Evers 0

9 F Frisch 5
24 N Fox 2

4 J Morgan 12
29 D Pedroia 3

13 C Biggio 8
20 R Cano 3

5 R Carew 9
28 L Doyle 0

12 W Randolph 5
21 B Doerr 4

3 N Lajoie 12
30 C Knoblauch 0

14 J Robinson 16
19 B McPhee 1

6 C Gehringer 11
27 D Pratt 0

11 R Alomar 13
22 T Phillips 0

2 E Collins 6
31 C Childs 1

15 C Utley
18 B Herman

7 L Whitaker
26 B Myers

10 R Sandberg
23 T Lazzeri

1 R Hornsby
17 J Kent

8 B Grich
9 F Frisch

4 J Morgan
13 C Biggio

5 R Carew
12 W Randolph

3 N Lajoie
14 J Robinson

6 C Gehringer
11 R Alomar

2 E Collins

 

[obxyankeefan]

Chase Utley Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Billy Herman Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[obxyankeefan]

Another tough one. I feel like Utley benefited from the shorter hitter parks of today and am having a hard time voting his way.

 

[calsnowskier]

OPS+ takes park factors into account. That's why it is the first offensive stat I look at when comparing players if different eras.

This is a very close one, and would be OK with either moving on, but I went with Herman despite the fact he had 6 OPS+ 120 seasons be Utleys 7. Herman had 5 seasons where he was a top 10 MVP finalist vs Utleys 3 seasons.

Very close one.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

OPS+ takes park factors into account. That's why it is the first offensive stat I look at when comparing players if different eras.

This is a very close one, and would be OK with either moving on, but I went with Herman despite the fact he had 6 OPS+ 120 seasons be Utleys 7. Herman had 5 seasons where he was a top 10 MVP finalist vs Utleys 3 seasons.

Very close one.

But Utley's top 3 seasons were better OPS+ than any of Herman's seasons... How can you say that this is the first stat you look at and then ignore it totally?? Utley had a career 122 OPS+ compared to Herman's 112... Utley had more 120+ seasons AND 3 seasons better than any season Herman Put up...

Honestly, the only reason to take herman OVER Utley is that he had nearly 2000 more PAs so his ratio numbers are stronger despite being similar...

Utley is even a better defensive player... So I got Utley...

 

[calsnowskier]

Completely ignore? Just because it is the FIRST stat I look at does not mean it is the ONLY stat I look at.

They have basically the same number of 120 seasons. I am not a huge fan of looking at career rate stats. If a guy loves the game (or has to play because he has no other skills), he will have a lot of bad seasons tacked on.

OPS+ for these two, in my estimation, is very close. Herman had three top 5 MVP seasons as opposed to Utleys zero. 10 all-star games vs 6. At the time he played, Herman was considered one of the top players in the game at a higher rate than Utley.

 

[navamind]

I think you guys are underrating just how good Utley was from 05-09. Just over that span, he batted .301/.388/.535 with a 138 wRC+. Those are the numbers you expect from an all-star 1B. He also rated as an excellent defensive 2nd baseman and a great baserunner (owns an 89% success rate on stolen bases). Fangraphs has him at 2nd in all of MLB in WAR (38.4) over that span behind only Pujols (40.7). That 5 year stretch easily rates as one of the best of all-time among 2B, on par with Morgan/Robinson/Hornsby.

And even since then, he's still posted a 110 OPS+, which is very good for a 2B. And I'm not convinced Utley's done just yet. He's batted .269/.340/.462 since returning to the majors. His BABIP was .186 during his atrocious 1st half. Utley has had trouble staying on the field of course, but when he has, he's still been quite good.

This one's closer than I thought it'd be, but I think Utley's peak seperates him.

 

[navamind]

Herman had three top 5 MVP seasons as opposed to Utleys zero.

The fact that Utley never finished top 5 in his career says more about the writers than Utley's performance. For chrissakes, Ryan Howard had four top 5 finishes.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think you guys are underrating just how good Utley was from 05-09. Just over that span, he batted .301/.388/.535 with a 138 wRC+. Those are the numbers you expect from an all-star 1B. He also rated as an excellent defensive 2nd baseman and a great baserunner (owns an 89% success rate on stolen bases). Fangraphs has him at 2nd in all of MLB in WAR (38.4) over that span behind only Pujols (40.7). That 5 year stretch easily rates as one of the best of all-time among 2B, on par with Morgan/Robinson/Hornsby.

And even since then, he's still posted a 110 OPS+, which is very good for a 2B. And I'm not convinced Utley's done just yet. He's batted .269/.340/.462 since returning to the majors. His BABIP was .186 during his atrocious 1st half.

Ladies and gentlemen...

Now THAT is how you make an argument.

BRAVO!!

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Completely ignore? Just because it is the FIRST stat I look at does not mean it is the ONLY stat I look at.

They have basically the same number of 120 seasons. I am not a huge fan of looking at career rate stats. If a guy loves the game (or has to play because he has no other skills), he will have a lot of bad seasons tacked on.

OPS+ for these two, in my estimation, is very close. Herman had three top 5 MVP seasons as opposed to Utleys zero. 10 all-star games vs 6. At the time he played, Herman was considered one of the top players in the game at a higher rate than Utley.

Just thought it was weird that you would bring up that OPS+ is the first stat you look at and saying how good it is for comparing different eras and then picking a player despite that stat being significantly worse(significantly because Utley had more 120+ seasons, 3 seasons better than Herman's best, and had a higher career OPS).

Again, the only thing that Herman really had over Utley is the 2000 more PAs, and all that does is strengthens ratio stats...

But I think it is clear that Utley at his best was better than Herman at his best...

also you bring up MVPs, problem with MVPs back then is that they based it WAY too much on batting average, HRs and RBIs ... and as you know those stats are not as strong as others...

 

[Villain]

It's still so weird to me that Utley is on the Dodgers right now. I can't get used to seeing it. Especially when him and Rollins are both in the lineup and turn a double play.

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