Top 32 tournament SS ARod vs Cronin

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Shortstop Bracket is:

1 H Wagner 8
32 N Garciaparra 0

16 PW Reese 3
17 L Boudreau 6

8 B Dahlen 8
25 A Fletcher 1

9 L Appling 8
24 D Bancroft 0

4 G Davis 6 advances on seed
29 O Vizquel 6

13 B Larkin 7
20 J Sewell 0

5 R Yount 8
28 V Stephens 4

12 A Trammell 14
21 J Tinker 0

3 C Ripken JR 8
30 T Fernandez 2

14 E Banks 10
19 L Aparicio 0

6 O Smith 16
27 J Rollins 1

11 D Jeter 12
22 B Campaneris 1

2 A Rodriguez 9
31 R Peckinpaugh 0

15 J Cronin 5
18 J Glasscock 4

7 B Wallace 5
26 M Tejada 6

10 A Vaughan 8
23 J Fregosi 0

1 H Wagner 9
17 L Boudreau 0

8 B Dahlen 1
9 L Appling 7

4 G Davis 2
13 B Larkin 10

5 R Yount 6
12 A Trammell 8

3 C Ripken JR 4
14 E Banks 8

6 O Smith 6
11 D Jeter 7

2 A Rodriguez
15 J Cronin

26 M Tejada
10 A Vaughan

1 H Wagner
9 L Appling

13 B Larkin
12 A Trammell

14 E Banks
11 D Jeter

 

[obxyankeefan]

Alex Rodriguez Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Roger Peckinpaugh 9-0

Joe Cronin Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Jack Glasscock 5-4

 

[MilkSpiller22]

power- ARod(close if you factor in MLB averages)
speed- Arod (not close)
SO- Cronin(NOT CLOSE)
BB- Cronin( Very Close)
BA- Cronin( Very close)
defense- Cronin(close)
Positional longevity-Cronin(not close)
career longevity- Arod( has over 3000 more PA)


due to Arod having superior power, speed, and career longevity while being very close in BA, ARod wins... But again, this is much closer than it first looked...

 

[Wamu]

I can't vote for A-Roid. Fuckin' cheater.

 

[calsnowskier]

This is an ugly one.

I ignore the "stink factor", so ARod gets no negative points from me for that.

However, ARod has not been a SS since '03. That eliminates 2 of his 3 MVPs from this discussion and only makes him a 9-year player. Cronin was a SS for 14 seasons.

The OPS+ battle is closer than expected, but still a run-away for ARod. Cronin had 8 120+ seasons in his 14 years, but Alex had 8 in his 9. And his were clearly bigger. Cronin maxed out at 138 in '41 while ARod topped that number 5 times.

I don't think ARod has a snowball's chance in hell of winning this tourney, he wins this round.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This is an ugly one.

I ignore the "stink factor", so ARod gets no negative points from me for that.

However, ARod has not been a SS since '03. That eliminates 2 of his 3 MVPs from this discussion and only makes him a 9-year player. Cronin was a SS for 14 seasons.

The OPS+ battle is closer than expected, but still a run-away for ARod. Cronin had 8 120+ seasons in his 14 years, but Alex had 8 in his 9. And his were clearly bigger. Cronin maxed out at 138 in '41 while ARod topped that number 5 times.

I don't think ARod has a snowball's chance in hell of winning this tourney, he wins this round.

I know OPS+ and other stats try to measure the different eras, but I do find it a little fishy that MOST of baseball legends came before Jackie Robinson came to the league...

Not saying that these legends would not be great in modern day baseball, but do we overvalue these players?? Ty cobb, Honus Wagner, Tris speaker, Shoeless joe, Rogers Hornsby, BABE RUTH, Lou Gehrig, etc...

 

[Howie115]

I will hold my nose and vote for A-Rod.

 

[calsnowskier]

I know OPS+ and other stats try to measure the different eras, but I do find it a little fishy that MOST of baseball legends came before Jackie Robinson came to the league...

Not saying that these legends would not be great in modern day baseball, but do we overvalue these players?? Ty cobb, Honus Wagner, Tris speaker, Shoeless joe, Rogers Hornsby, BABE RUTH, Lou Gehrig, etc...

I fully believe that the old greats would have no chance of playing todays game. Even Ruth. The entirety of the game today is just too demanding. The guys "back in the day" were 6-month players. They were getting drunk 3 nights a week.

However, on the flip-side, I doubt many of todays players would have been able to compete given the landscape in the '10s and '20s either. The guys today are more products of hard work and 12-month dedication then they are of pure talent.

Basically, the game is TOTALLY different from era to era when you factor in all the different components ($$, time invested, injury concerns, media scrutiny, etc).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I fully believe that the old greats would have no chance of playing todays game. Even Ruth. The entirety of the game today is just too demanding. The guys "back in the day" were 6-month players. They were getting drunk 3 nights a week.

However, on the flip-side, I doubt many of todays players would have been able to compete given the landscape in the '10s and '20s either. The guys today are more products of hard work and 12-month dedication then they are of pure talent.

Basically, the game is TOTALLY different from era to era when you factor in all the different components ($$, time invested, injury concerns, media scrutiny, etc).

I agree that that the eras are totally different... and it makes it very difficult to compare... I was really responding to your comment on saying that AROD has no chance to win this tournament... Noticing that most #1 and or #2 ranked players all came from early baseball doesn't that cheapen how we should look at those players???
# of pre integration players(top5, top 10)
C- (0,2)
1B- (4,5.5) Johnny mize played half his career in the integration era
2B-(4,6)
3B-(0,0)
SS-(3,5)
LF-(0,3)- I did not count Ted Williams as a pre
CF-(2,2)
RF-(2,3)
SP- more complicated due to IP per season... But Cy young, walter Johnson, Ole pete, Christy Mathewson, Lefty grove- all seen to be top 20 pitchers of all time...

 

[calsnowskier]

So you are looking at the integration argument. I did not realize that. Sorry. I was really just looking at the fact that the sport was not the boon that it is today.

Looking at the limited competition is a valid argument, but absolutely impossible to quantify. Remember that integration was still pre-expansion, so there were fewer seats at the table as well.

And, as I have stated elsewhere, we can only judge what happened in the MLB. We cant judge what MIGHT have happened, or what happened in other leagues (no Josh Gibson or Sadoharu Oh, for example). I think the only way to look at something like this is to judge everyone against their peers, and those that stood taller are judged as being better. Flawed? Absolutely. But it is the best I got.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So you are looking at the integration argument. I did not realize that. Sorry. I was really just looking at the fact that the sport was not the boon that it is today.

Looking at the limited competition is a valid argument, but absolutely impossible to quantify. Remember that integration was still pre-expansion, so there were fewer seats at the table as well.

And, as I have stated elsewhere, we can only judge what happened in the MLB. We cant judge what MIGHT have happened, or what happened in other leagues (no Josh Gibson or Sadoharu Oh, for example). I think the only way to look at something like this is to judge everyone against their peers, and those that stood taller are judged as being better. Flawed? Absolutely. But it is the best I got.

Not sure if I am only arguing the integration...

Basically I just find it interesting that Most of the baseball legends were old- timey... Again, I do think the greats would be great no matter when they played(at least most of them), but I do think there stats got padded because the average player was weak(I have found no evidence on this, just my opinion)...