POLL Top 10 poll #21: #21 player in history - Runoff 2

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #21 player in baseball history. Poll closes Tuesday AM.

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22 @chappee11
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
@Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte
@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
@Robotech @kcden @jwolt92
@Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab
@DorianRo @socaljim242
@msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin
@catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1
@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007
@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

If Pedro doesn't win this round, I want off the vote list

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If Pedro doesn't win this round, I want off the vote list

thats silly... i get it if griffey wins... but Foxx is a worthy winner... and doesnt hurt the process...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i am holding off on my vote... i am an anti griffeyite here.. so i want to create the best chance for Griffey not to be in runoff#3...

and between Pedro and Foxx, i think that is super close... basically a tie...

 

[calsnowskier]

i am holding off on my vote... i am an anti griffeyite here.. so i want to create the best chance for Griffey not to be in runoff#3...

and between Pedro and Foxx, i think that is super close... basically a tie...

I hate that Griffey is being used like this. He was a great, very likable player. I want to vote for him EVENTUALLY. I fear this could sour my opinion on him, delaying my eventual support.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I hate that Griffey is being used like this. He was a great, very likable player. I want to vote for him EVENTUALLY. I fear this could sour my opinion on him, delaying my eventual support.

honestly, after Foxx, i can start seeing the argument.. I mean, AROD would have been voted for already if it wasnt for the obvious reasons... and Trout is all prime but no substance...

LHG has been stumping Frank Robinson... but i honestly, think Griffey isnot too far off from robinson

I do have at least 3 pitchers that should be picked in the next 5 votes... including pedro...

 

[calsnowskier]

honestly, after Foxx, i can start seeing the argument.. I mean, AROD would have been voted for already if it wasnt for the obvious reasons... and Trout is all prime but no substance...

LHG has been stumping Frank Robinson... but i honestly, think Griffey isnot too far off from robinson

I do have at least 3 pitchers that should be picked in the next 5 votes... including pedro...

I am a big Robinson fan. I think he is incredibly underrated. If he got any traction, I would love to stump him.

ARod was a no doubt super talent. It is sad that he placed himself in a situation where I can’t vote for him.

Trout v Griffey would be interesting. They are both too current though, and none of us can view them objectively.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am a big Robinson fan. I think he is incredibly underrated. If he got any traction, I would love to stump him.

i dont disagree.. i am just saying that offensively we are getting to that type of player... very soon... i see Griffey in that level... maybe lower end of that level... but still in that level...

 

[calsnowskier]

i dont disagree.. i am just saying that offensively we are getting to that type of player... very soon... i see Griffey in that level... maybe lower end of that level... but still in that level...

I agree. I don’t think Griffey is THAT far away now. But he is definitely a notch or 2 below our current spot.

 

[steveringo]

Yep. This is just a fun game.

It is already blown up (imo), but I'll still vote and give my amateur opinions....

Like: I have Pedro closer to 10 than to 20

 

[calsnowskier]

Yep. This is just a fun game.

It is already blown up (imo), but I'll still vote and give my amateur opinions....

Like: I have Pedro closer to 10 than to 20

I don’t have Pedro THAT high (Lefty probably has a better case), but I agree we are getting close to the “snub” territory for him. But there are other very deserving players that also belong in that discussion, and they HAVE been.

Griffey was not a bad player. He was, in fact, a GREAT player. But what he showed and accumulated on the field does not compare to others who are in discussion at this point.

 

[LHG]

Consider WAR7 as we talk about Griffey (54). His WAR7 ranks behind these hitters:
Mike Trout - 65.1
Eddie Collins - 64.3
Alex Rodriguez - 64.3
Nap Lajoie - 60.1
Joe Morgan - 59.3
Wade Boggs - 56.4
Cal Ripken Jr - 56.3
Carl Yastrzemski - 55.6
Mookie Betts - 55
Roberto Clemente - 54.5
Ivan Rodriguez - 54.3

His career WAR of 83.8 (in 22 seasons) ranks behind these hitters:
Eddie Collins - 124.3 (25)
Alex Rodriguez - 117.6 (22)
Mel Ott - 110.9 (22)
Frank Robinson - 107.2 (21)
Nap Lajoie - 106.9 (21)
Joe Morgan - 100.6 (22)
Carl Yastrzemski - 96.5 (23)
Cal Ripken Jr - 95.9 (21)
Eddie Mathews - 95.9 (17)
Roberto Clemente - 94.9 (18)
Cap Anson - 94.3 (27)
Adrian Beltre - 93.5 (21)
Al Kaline - 92.8 (22)
Wade Boggs - 91.4 (18)
George Brett - 88.6 (21)
Mike Trout - 86.2 (14)
Chipper Jones - 85.3 (19)
Charlie Gehringer - 84.8 (19)
George Davis - 84.5 (20)
Roger Connor - 84.3 (18)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t have Pedro THAT high (Lefty probably has a better case), but I agree we are getting close to the “snub” territory for him. But there are other very deserving players that also belong in that discussion, and they HAVE been.

Griffey was not a bad player. He was, in fact, a GREAT player. But what he showed and accumulated on the field does not compare to others who are in discussion at this point.

It’s not snub territory when he is still #5 pitcher. Which is also probably where I have him. I just don’t have maddux in the top 5 and have lefty grove as 3

 

[calsnowskier]

Consider WAR7 as we talk about Griffey (54). His WAR7 ranks behind these hitters:
Mike Trout - 65.1
Eddie Collins - 64.3
Alex Rodriguez - 64.3
Nap Lajoie - 60.1
Joe Morgan - 59.3
Wade Boggs - 56.4
Cal Ripken Jr - 56.3
Carl Yastrzemski - 55.6
Mookie Betts - 55
Roberto Clemente - 54.5
Ivan Rodriguez - 54.3

His career WAR of 83.8 (in 22 seasons) ranks behind these hitters:
Eddie Collins - 124.3 (25)
Alex Rodriguez - 117.6 (22)
Mel Ott - 110.9 (22)
Frank Robinson - 107.2 (21)
Nap Lajoie - 106.9 (21)
Joe Morgan - 100.6 (22)
Carl Yastrzemski - 96.5 (23)
Cal Ripken Jr - 95.9 (21)
Eddie Mathews - 95.9 (17)
Roberto Clemente - 94.9 (18)
Cap Anson - 94.3 (27)
Adrian Beltre - 93.5 (21)
Al Kaline - 92.8 (22)
Wade Boggs - 91.4 (18)
George Brett - 88.6 (21)
Mike Trout - 86.2 (14)
Chipper Jones - 85.3 (19)
Charlie Gehringer - 84.8 (19)
George Davis - 84.5 (20)
Roger Connor - 84.3 (18)

But…

 

[LHG]

But…

Based on the WAR7 numbers, I see how he is comparable to Rodriguez, Clemente, Betts, Yastrzemski, Ripken and Boggs. However, Lajoie, Rodriguez, Collins and Trout all clearly had better 7 year peaks then him.

Then looking at career WAR, only Anson, Yastrzemski and Collins had longer careers. Everyone else above him played the same or fewer seasons. I think there would be a pretty good argument that 7 or 8 of these hitters had better careers than Griffey, and should be considered before him. Another 10 or 12 could be considered right around him. And that is not even taking into consideration pitchers.

 

[calsnowskier]

Based on the WAR7 numbers, I see how he is comparable to Rodriguez, Clemente, Betts, Yastrzemski, Ripken and Boggs. However, Lajoie, Rodriguez, Collins and Trout all clearly had better 7 year peaks then him.

Then looking at career WAR, only Anson, Yastrzemski and Collins had longer careers. Everyone else above him played the same or fewer seasons. I think there would be a pretty good argument that 7 or 8 of these hitters had better careers than Griffey, and should be considered before him. Another 10 or 12 could be considered right around him. And that is not even taking into consideration pitchers.

So let’s look beyond the numbers. What “unicorn factors” does he have that could explain his support?

- He played in the PED era, and the narrative was that he was clean.
- He was a fun kid who appeared to play the game with great joy.
- He has a fuck ton of HRs

I just don’t see any other unicorn arguments for him.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Consider WAR7 as we talk about Griffey (54). His WAR7 ranks behind these hitters:
Mike Trout - 65.1
Eddie Collins - 64.3
Alex Rodriguez - 64.3
Nap Lajoie - 60.1
Joe Morgan - 59.3
Wade Boggs - 56.4
Cal Ripken Jr - 56.3
Carl Yastrzemski - 55.6
Mookie Betts - 55
Roberto Clemente - 54.5
Ivan Rodriguez - 54.3

His career WAR of 83.8 (in 22 seasons) ranks behind these hitters:
Eddie Collins - 124.3 (25)
Alex Rodriguez - 117.6 (22)
Mel Ott - 110.9 (22)
Frank Robinson - 107.2 (21)
Nap Lajoie - 106.9 (21)
Joe Morgan - 100.6 (22)
Carl Yastrzemski - 96.5 (23)
Cal Ripken Jr - 95.9 (21)
Eddie Mathews - 95.9 (17)
Roberto Clemente - 94.9 (18)
Cap Anson - 94.3 (27)
Adrian Beltre - 93.5 (21)
Al Kaline - 92.8 (22)
Wade Boggs - 91.4 (18)
George Brett - 88.6 (21)
Mike Trout - 86.2 (14)
Chipper Jones - 85.3 (19)
Charlie Gehringer - 84.8 (19)
George Davis - 84.5 (20)
Roger Connor - 84.3 (18)

Some of those war7 you took jaws and not war7.

Also unfortunately you are also showing the problem with war. I would easily take Griffey over more than half of the players you listed.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So let’s look beyond the numbers. What “unicorn factors” does he have that could explain his support?

- He played in the PED era, and the narrative was that he was clean.
- He was a fun kid who appeared to play the game with great joy.
- He has a fuck ton of HRs

I just don’t see any other unicorn arguments for him.

Video game

 

[LHG]

Some of those war7 you took jaws and not war7.

Also unfortunately you are also showing the problem with war. I would easily take Griffey over more than half of the players you listed.

Dang it! Sometimes I look at the wrong column. I'll have to fix that.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

my next 4 position players

1.AROD
2. Foxx
3. Morgan
4. Ott

after Ott, i feel like there is a lot of 'traffic'

Trout, i just cant decide on where to place him... his prime is clearly amongst the elite... but until he shows anything else, whether it is an extension to his prime years, or is a real part of a WS team, i dont think i can vote for him above players even like griffey...