The Jeff Hornacek Thread

[nuraman00]

I haven't started too many threads with the word horny, but since Hornacek is likely taking a head coaching job for the Suns. What is your take? Do you think Corbin is a credible to decent coach? Should we have canned him and hired Horny?

Why are the options between Corbin and Horny?



The options should be Corbin vs. Horny vs. Byron Scott vs.
Phil Jackson vs.
Nate McMillan,
Mo Cheeks,
Flip Saunders,
Jerry Sloan
Mike Brown
Jeff Van Gundy
Stan Van Gundy
Paul Silas
Alvin Gentry
Scott Skiles
Doug Collins
Lawrence Frank
Michael Curry
Mike Dunleavy Sr.


And cmon Sackataters, I know you text your wife with the subject "horny" all the time. J/K.


Corbin didn't impress me, but he also had arguably the league's worst starting backcourt to work with. That will make any offense look bad.

And Jefferson being the defender that he was, makes the team defense look bad, along with that aforementioned bad backcourt.

If the Jazz made some decent moves, I would give Corbin a chance, but he'd better make it work within 2 months.

It was also Corbin's own fault that he didn't play Kanter and Favors more over Jefferson, since Jefferson's defense was worse than normal last year.

So there's plenty of blame and responsibility from the GM to the coach himself.

 

[MHSL82]

Jeff Hornacek agrees to become Phoenix Suns' head coach, according to sources

 

[WhiteMamba]

Horny

 

[Sackataters]

Why are the options between Corbin and Horny?

The options should be
Nate McMillan,
Mo Cheeks,
Jerry Sloan
Jeff Van Gundy
Stan Van Gundy
Paul Silas
Alvin Gentry
Scott Skiles
Doug Collins

You know I'm a Jerry fan, but it would be odd to go back now. Collins is fiery and demanding and I like that. I want a cerebral coach. I'd take one of the Van Gundys.

 

[MHSL82]

Phoenix Suns confirm hiring of Jeff Hornacek as coach

 

[MHSL82]

What do you guys think of the Karl Malone part time hiring?

Great! He could help our guys, whoever re-signs, and keeps him from joining Hornacek's team. if Hornacek didn't really want him, it saves the awkward non-signing. I like that it is part-time, as I think more could be a problem, perhaps (maybe not).

You should read the Salt Lake Tribune's Gordon Monson's argument for hiring him. It lists a lot of pros and cons.

The Return Of Karl Malone

 

[nuraman00]

Great! He could help our guys, whoever re-signs, and keeps him from joining Hornacek's team. if Hornacek didn't really want him, it saves the awkward non-signing. I like that it is part-time, as I think more could be a problem, perhaps (maybe not).

Hyping up Hornacek as a coach a little too much. There is nothing appealing about him as a coach, other than the fact that Malone played with him.

He wasn't a highly sought assistant. 26 other teams wouldn't have hired him if they had a choice. Most wouldn't have even interviewed him.

Phoenix basically made a move to sell tickets to fans, who would think that "hey, he used to be a good player, maybe he'll make a good coach!" It was a cheap hire from a not highly sought after coach. If the Suns were serious about a coach, they would have hired someone other teams actually want too, or a veteran coach.

I'd say the same thing if Hornacek was hired by the Jazz. It was designed to sell hope. There were a lot of better options out there.

Hornacek wasn't highly regarded. He isn't going to come up with an innovative offense or defense, an will probably stick with something basic that fits his team.

 

[nuraman00]

Someone like Lionel Hollins, he's worked for 3 different organizations at least, and had long stops at 2 of them, before he was a head coach. That means other organizations thought he brought something, to keep him around for so long.

With Hornacek, only 2 teams considered him, all conveniently teams he played for. The Bobcats also interviewed him, but went with someone else.

 

[MHSL82]

Hyping up Hornacek as a coach a little too much. There is nothing appealing about him as a coach, other than the fact that Malone played with him.

He wasn't a highly sought assistant. 26 other teams wouldn't have hired him if they had a choice. Most wouldn't have even interviewed him.

Phoenix basically made a move to sell tickets to fans, who would think that "hey, he used to be a good player, maybe he'll make a good coach!" It was a cheap hire from a not highly sought after coach. If the Suns were serious about a coach, they would have hired someone other teams actually want too, or a veteran coach.

I'd say the same thing if Hornacek was hired by the Jazz. It was designed to sell hope. There were a lot of better options out there.

Hornacek wasn't highly regarded. He isn't going to come up with an innovative offense or defense, an will probably stick with something basic that fits his team.

Where's the hype? I looked over the thread and in other threads and didn't find any. Who's hyping him?

I'm not a Suns fan so what do I care? Oh, and I wasn't hyping the Hornacek hire. I was just happy for him. If I hyped it, I would have wished out loud for him to have gone to Milwaukee so that we didn't have to play his team so much.

Having said that, I won't say anything further to judge him before he coaches. I don't blame him for not being highly sought, highly regarded. He was sought, hired, and now will have a chance to show himself. Most teams aren't hiring, he was interviewed at a few that were last year and who knows if he turned down others and if he turned down some this year knowing Phoenix was interested.

He has to start somewhere and he did have some success independent of Malone and Stockton. He wasn't the best, but he held his own for the type of player he was (20 points in Phoenix, consistently 14+, great three point shooter. White. ) Not crossing my fingers, but my loyalty will remain with him, as long as we hire someone eventually over Corbin. I hope he does better than expected because better than expected doesn't mean beating us. I'm not going to bet on him, just rather see him coach than someone else I don't care about on a team I don't care about.

 

[Sackataters]

Horny describes Corbin as a players coach. Would you describe Pop as a players coach? You have to be able to communicate, sure. But with these types of players, you have to get their respect to demand production. I don't think you can always be the nice guy.

I want a coach that can think on his feet and adjust. How frustrating it was to see Corbin only making personnel moves after it was obvious to even the most basic fan (like me).

 

[nuraman00]

Horny describes Corbin as a players coach. Would you describe Pop as a players coach? You have to be able to communicate, sure. But with these types of players, you have to get their respect to demand production. I don't think you can always be the nice guy.

I want a coach that can think on his feet and adjust. How frustrating it was to see Corbin only making personnel moves after it was obvious to even the most basic fan (like me).

I don't know. Players like playing for him. They talk about how he gives them confidence, and how they understand their role. That's got to make him a players coach to some extent, if players like playing for him.

Heck, someone who's never played for Popovich, Tyreke Evans, said he would like to play for SA and Popovich if he could.

Just because a coach isn't nice, it doesn't mean they aren't a players coach either.

 

[nuraman00]

Having said that, I won't say anything further to judge him before he coaches. I don't blame him for not being highly sought, highly regarded. He was sought, hired, and now will have a chance to show himself. Most teams aren't hiring, he was interviewed at a few that were last year and who knows if he turned down others and if he turned down some this year knowing Phoenix was interested.

While he hasn't been an assistant coach for very long, his name has never come up as one that was sought after by other teams.

And teams have been hiring coaches for years, and many didn't interview him. Teams are hiring. Just this offseason, there have been 5 vacancies filled, with five more to go (Detroit, Philadelphia, Memphis, L.A. Clippers, Milwaukee).

Last year, there were four vacancies.

Among the last 14 vacancies, he's had 2 head coaching interviews? Someone other organizations think is good, would have gotten a few more.

I'm not going to bet on him, just rather see him coach than someone else I don't care about on a team I don't care about.

Good. He can go coach on another continent, or another planet.

I hope he does better than expected because better than expected doesn't mean beating us.

Who cares if the Suns even sweep the Jazz? The goal isn't to compare oneself to one team, it's to compare oneself to 29 other teams.

A team beating another team even if a regular season series doesn't mean they're better overall, it just means they happened to win the majority of 3 or 4 games.

A 15 win team might sweep another team during the regular season, but at the end of the day, they still only had 15 wins.

It's like being glad a player that's traded away is sent to another conference. The goal is to get better the fastest, or help rebuild the fastest, not place all emphasis on a few regular season games next year. That's why I don't compare the teams involved in trades directly; I compare teams relative to all other teams that are either trying to rebuild or contend, depending on what bucket they fall in.

Suns with Hornacek vs. Jazz doesn't matter unless it's in the playoffs, and if both teams are in the playoffs, then there should be more emphasis on the Jazz outlook rather than who the opposing coach is. Milwaukee with Hornacek vs. Jazz just means 1.5 less regular season games.


I think had Hornacek gone through the D-League, or international teams, or college, there would be a greater indicator of what he could do. Right now, he just looks like a cheap hire by teams trying to keep coaching costs down (Charlotte, Phoenix).

 

[nuraman00]

Hornacek seems like he'll be like McHale or Bill Russell as a coach. They got hired because of what they did as a player, rather than prove themselves as a head coach elsewhere first, or be an assistant coach for a longer period of time, and someone who was sought after.

I think McHale, for example, is ok on defense as a coach. I haven't seen his teams enough to form an opinion about his offense. What I mean is that he's only been a head coach for 4 years, so there hasn't been enough time, with enough different players, for me to see anything special on offense. He's probably just ok, meaning good enough to coach in the league, but perhaps not distinct enough to stand out.

 

[nuraman00]

If Hornacek can be as competent of a coach as Cheeks was, then I think it was a solid hire.

That's my baseline.

 

[MHSL82]

While he hasn't been an assistant coach for very long, his name has never come up as one that was sought after by other teams.

And teams have been hiring coaches for years, and many didn't interview him. Teams are hiring. Just this offseason, there have been 5 vacancies filled, with five more to go (Detroit, Philadelphia, Memphis, L.A. Clippers, Milwaukee).

Last year, there were four vacancies.

Among the last 14 vacancies, he's had 2 head coaching interviews? Someone other organizations think is good, would have gotten a few more.

Two before and this one, in two-three years of coaching. Before he came on as a player to work with a few of our players, not as a real coach. Three interviews is pretty damn good for the short time he's been here. That's enough of a sought after for me, for three years. I know there are better coaches, but I don't care about Phoenix. I would say that if he had started earlier, he would have taken Corbin's job. I know you'd want an established or high potential guy, but it would have been between Corbin and Hornacek. Corbin was an assistant longer, so he had that going for him and as mentioned, Hornacek wasn't there in full capacity at the time.

Good. He can go coach on another continent, or another planet.

If I didn't know you, I'd think you needed to lay off on this hiring. I'm not saying that because I know you know your stuff and love the NBA. I understand the "earn it" part, but alas, he can go coach for Phoenix. Not another continent or planet. Whatever reason he was hired wouldn't change my opinion of the hire. I'm happy for him because I don't care who coaches for Phoenix. I did say that I wasn't pulling for him to coach here, just more than Corbin.

I know it's not, but it sounds like it's personal or that you're a fan of the Suns. I know you love the NBA, so maybe just shrug your shoulders? Not all hiring makes sense. I'm glad that a guy I wouldn't mind doing well is coaching. I am NOT expecting him to do well. Don't mean to insult here, just saying that it is a little harsh. I already told you I have no expectations for him and implied I didn't think of him highly enough to want him here. I just don't care about Phoenix and am not as much of an NBA fan as you are.

Who cares if the Suns even sweep the Jazz? The goal isn't to compare oneself to one team, it's to compare oneself to 29 other teams.

A team beating another team even if a regular season series doesn't mean they're better overall, it just means they happened to win the majority of 3 or 4 games.

A 15 win team might sweep another team during the regular season, but at the end of the day, they still only had 15 wins.

It's like being glad a player that's traded away is sent to another conference. The goal is to get better the fastest, or help rebuild the fastest, not place all emphasis on a few regular season games next year. That's why I don't compare the teams involved in trades directly; I compare teams relative to all other teams that are either trying to rebuild or contend, depending on what bucket they fall in.

Suns with Hornacek vs. Jazz doesn't matter unless it's in the playoffs, and if both teams are in the playoffs, then there should be more emphasis on the Jazz outlook rather than who the opposing coach is. Milwaukee with Hornacek vs. Jazz just means 1.5 less regular season games.

Agree, but I was talking about the playoffs, though I can't really expect us both to make it and play each other. I am loyal to the Jazz so that's why I added that part. I don't care about season series, either. I'm sure it's more important in MLB where they play them all together, but I'm not huge in baseball.

I think had Hornacek gone through the D-League, or international teams, or college, there would be a greater indicator of what he could do. Right now, he just looks like a cheap hire by teams trying to keep coaching costs down (Charlotte, Phoenix).

True. If he had won a championship as a coach, even better. I get it. He doesn't have experience. Saying he is not proven is one thing. Another is my approach - I don't care - if any one of those on your list were hired, it would be better. But Phoenix can win or lose. I like that he's getting his opportunity. If he fails, that's his fault for going in without knowing full what to do (though management can have an effect based upon money and stuff).

 

[nuraman00]

I think given Phoenix's track record the past few years, not only with player signings (Beasley, Warrick), but with coaching, they could have used a more widely-considered good move, whether it was someone proven or not.

There is a time to think outside the box, or try someone different. Maybe if you've plateaued, or if you're just starting to rebuild.

But since many of their moves the past few years have been questioned right when they've made, I thought they could go more traditional for a time being.

One thing I like about the Hornacek deal is that it's 3 years guaranteed, with a 4th year team option. That shows that they believe in him to give him a decent deal. If he was as unwanted as I made him sounded earlier, he would have probably been given (or taken) a 2 year deal. The longer the years guaranteed, then I think the stronger they feel about his potential. To me, coaching hires aren't so much about yearly salary, but years guaranteed. Do they see him as a long-term solution? They possibly do.

 

[nuraman00]

Good. He can go coach on another continent, or another planet.

If I didn't know you, I'd think you needed to lay off on this hiring. I'm not saying that because I know you know your stuff and love the NBA. I understand the "earn it" part, but alas, he can go coach for Phoenix. Not another continent or planet. Whatever reason he was hired wouldn't change my opinion of the hire. I'm happy for him because I don't care who coaches for Phoenix. I did say that I wasn't pulling for him to coach here, just more than Corbin.

I was just trying to be funny, and it came off too strongly. I would have liked him to have head coaching experience elsewhere first, or a longer stint as an assistant. I think coaching a team in another country, for example, is good experience.

I also just think that there were so may coaching options this year, that the Suns should have interviewed more candidates. Made it a more exhaustive search.

They interviewed Bickerstaff, Clifford, Quin Snyder, and Hornacek. I would have liked one sough-after candidate in that list, and if they chose Hornacek over him, then that would speak more to me about how Hornacek came off.

I know, interviewing skills and coaching skills aren't the same, but it's something.

I'm just skeptical of the decision-making of the Suns front office. (And the Nets). I'm sure others have the same concerns about Sacramento or Charlotte or Memphis (with letting Hollins and Gay go) or Toronto.

In a weird way, I'm not skeptical of the Knicks decision-making, but just think that their vision of what is good is not aligned with reality. If that makes sense. ;-)

Back to Hornacek, does anyone have any info on how he interacted with players the past few years? That could shed some light. Did any players mention that they enjoyed working with him, or that they learned a lot, etc.?

 

[MHSL82]

I was just trying to be funny, and it came off too strongly.

In that case, I apologize for responding the way I did. I should have known. I do get a bit defensive sometimes when it comes to prognosticating or when it feels that the criticism of a team's management is directed at the player or coach, who by all accounts, did what he should - take the job. Funny thing is, I don't think I would have reacted if you had said, "I can't believe the Suns management isn't looking for someone more experienced." It was the same thing as you said, as "cheap hire" is pointed at management. It just felt that it was pointed at Hornacek.

I sometimes feel for those in competition, like players or coaches. I feel like, they're trying hard and working hard so they don't deserve criticism for things like experience, etc. Stubbornness, me-first, non-discipline, etc., sure. I perhaps project myself too much in feeling how I would approach a job. As far as I know, Hornacek is approaching it the way I would - enthusiasm, probably some anxiety, and a lot of hard work. Sure, team management people do the same, but I'm not as connected to them empathetically.

 

[nuraman00]

Funny thing is, I don't think I would have reacted if you had said, "I can't believe the Suns management isn't looking for someone more experienced." It was the same thing as you said, as "cheap hire" is pointed at management. It just felt that it was pointed at Hornacek.

Yup, I was looking at it from the Suns management point of view. I didn't think they did a thorough job interviewing all types of candidates. I would have liked one high profile (either a good veteran coach or a highly-sought up and coming assistant) to be interviewed. If they chose Hornacek over that candidate too, then that would seem more like the Suns management did a thorough job, and maybe the style / fit of the other coaches weren't as good as what they saw in Hornacek. It could have also been about contract terms if they passed over the other coaches, but it could have just been that they liked Hornacek more too, and I would give all parties a stronger vote of confidence.

But to me, the candidate list that the Suns interviewed was not as impressive, and so I wonder if their management team will improve.

I wonder whether they have a good long term plan, or if they're looking at a short-term hire. They gave Hornacek a 3+1 contract, so that's one sign they think Hornacek could be a good longterm hire, but that's not a good enough reason for me to put faith in their management alone.

I've stated in the past the responsibility I feel O'Connor has had for recent Jazz teams, a little moreso than the coach or players, at this point.

JVG also talked about management's importance, I posted an excerpt in the Around The League thread, #157.

 

[MHSL82]

As for the "planet" joke, there were 2 things to look at:

1. One is the standard exaggeration that happens on message boards. If I say he shot it from the Rocky Mountains, the next person will say he shot it from the ionosphere.

I say "country", then I juxtapose it with "planet" to show the next level of exaggeration.

2. Aliens (and therefore by inference, foreign planets) have been discussed between us lately. For example, those books with about the alien teacher. So that was the other connection I was trying to draw.

Yeah, that was my fault how I took what you said. I read that after already feeling it was against Hornacek, despite how I knew it was against management.

I used to "color" EVERY comment I made to be as objective, but now I just say what I think. So now, I will support Hornacek but without expecctations and second to the Jazz (playoffs). Jeremy Lin's team, third. Actually, not his team, just him. Coaches have to win for results. I'm ok being an individual stat fan of Lin's, though I know his line or play is not very good.