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Discussion in 'Philadelphia Flyers' started by wbon22, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. wbon22

    wbon22 Well-Known Member

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    Another season, no cup, no cup run, no playoffs.

    So, where are we?

    Well, Fletcher is the GM with a mandate to both spend and get better fast.
    Vigneault is the new head coach. Other then perhaps the goalie coach, we don't know the rest of the staff yet.
    Known/Given team moving forward:
    G: Hart
    D: Sanheim, Provorov, Ghost (?), Haag (?), Gudas, Morin, Myers
    F: Giroux, JvR, Couter, Koneck, Jake, Lindblom, Raffl, Laughton, Patrick

    Okay... we may agree or not on this backbone, but, this is not a bad starting point.
    I think that one of the Defense will be dealt either at the draft or after 7/1. I think AMac is going to be bought out.

    Prospects who could/may/should (?) make the team next year?
    Morgan Frost. Some think he is too "slight" for the NHL. They most likely have never seen Simon Gagne or Justin Williams rookie years. Both were slight and both had great wheels.
    Joel Farabee. Not much more of a physical specimen than Frost. Very polished game.
    Isaac Ratcliffe. Physically a specimen. Skating may be an issue.

    Needs:
    A top four defenseman. Preferably a right D to play with Provorov.
    A #2 center who can play #3 minutes depending on circumstances.

    With all of the young D on the roster at least one could be used in a trade. I keep thinking Kadri would be a natural fit as a Flyer. Do you go really crazy and move for Nylander and Kadri? The Leafs are going to need to shed $ to resign Marner. Either one would be a big upgrade to the forward ranks.

    On the blueline, Tyler Myers could be a good fit, or not. He has size and plays with a subtle edge, not a real banger but has mobility and can play a lot of minutes in all three situations. He is not a 1 or 2, but he is a top 4 NHL defenseman.

    Resign Talbot to back up Hart.

    Sit back and hope the team come together. Fletcher is a big unknown. I just don't know how to read him and what he will do. Homer, Clarke, Hextal...all were predictable to an extent. Fletcher, I just don't know. AV, I just don't know. It will be interesting.

    Here's to the Draft, Free Agent Frenzy...and all the other fun.
     



  2. JBM73

    JBM73 Well-Known Member

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    I’m hoping the Flyers sign Anders Lee and Justin Williams and trade for Jacob Trouba.
     
  3. awaz

    awaz Well-Known Member

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    I'd be cool with that. A little concerned about C, but I think Williams has been playing C for the Canes.
     
  4. JBM73

    JBM73 Well-Known Member

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    Lee is actually a natural center who has been playing more LW this season. I'm assuming he's capable of playing C in the NHL, but if that's a bad assumption then I agree with the need to bring in another C instead.
     
  5. JBM73

    JBM73 Well-Known Member

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    With the Flyers being linked to Toronto in multiple trade scenarios, here's a thought on a blockbuster:

    To Phi: C Kadri, RW Kapanen, D Zaitsev, 2019 2nd round pick

    To Tor: D Gostisbehere, D Hagg, C Frost, LW Ratcliffe

    Kadri and Kapanen fill the current holes in the Flyers top 9 forwards and Zaitsev fills the hole on the right side on D and I believe has played with Provorov at some point, although he is a bit overpaid. The 2nd round pick helps keep the talent pipeline flowing with the trade of young prospects.

    For Tor, Gostisbehere is obviously the centerpiece of the trade, with Hagg adding depth and alleviating some of the Flyers' logjam on D. Frost and Ratcliffe provide 2 near-NHL ready prospects (both Toronto area kids) to help offset the losses at F in a sell-high move. This trade also frees up much needed cap space for them.

    Giroux-Couturier-Konecny
    JVR-Kadri-Voracek
    Lindblom-Patrick-Kapanen
    Raffl-Laughton-Hartman

    Provorov-Zaitsev
    Sanheim-Gudas
    Morin/MacD-Myers

    Hart
    TBD
     
  6. raptorlife4

    raptorlife4 Long Time Member

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    this would be one of the worst trades in Flyers history
     
  7. awaz

    awaz Well-Known Member

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    I think that's an overpay personally. I would consider a Ghost/Kadri swap, so assuming you make them a wash, the rest of the trade is:

    Kapanen, Zaitsev, 2nd round

    for

    Hagg, Frost, Ratcliffe

    From there, there's not much between Hagg and Zaitsev as players. Zaitsev plays a little more (~20 min/game), drove play a little better (though still < 50%) and is right handed, but Hagg had more points and obviously more hits and blocked shots. Zaitsev has 5 years left at 4.5M; Hagg's projection is 2 years x 1.8. I'd rather have Hagg. Possibly even much rather.

    So then it's Frost, Ratcliffe, and a little more value on D; for Kapanen and a 2nd. I like Kapanen, he drives play, scored 20 goals last year with 17 of them coming at even strength. If you give him more ice time and PP time (had < 1:00 per game), what happens to those point totals? Especially if he plays with Giroux at EV or on the PP. Plus he plays on the PK. His contract projection is 2.2M for 2 years, I'd probably want to lock him up for longer at a higher hit if you're trading this much to get him, but that's reasonable. However, Frost is arguably your best chance at an elite point producer at the NHL level in the prospect pool. Maybe he doesn't pan out to that, and this deal would mitigate risk for the Flyers, but that's a high ceiling to move. Throw in Ratcliffe who is probably their best chance at a 30 goal scorer. That's a tough sell for me. I don't think a 2nd makes up the difference for me.

    I don't think it's too far off, but Zaitsev looks like AMac 2.0 to me. If he's in there, I'd like to see someone other than Ratcliffe. Taking Zaitsev is a favor to the Leafs IMO, I don't think this trade rewards that sacrifice. Giving up Ghost to get Kadri is reasonable. Giving up Frost to get Kapanen hurts, but might be OK too. It's the side dishes of the deal that give me pause.
     
  8. JBM73

    JBM73 Well-Known Member

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    Good thoughts.

    Here were some of my thoughts that went into this:

    1) If we want to "win now" and not waste the rest of the core's prime, we have to understand the value of prospects vs veterans. Most fans overrate prospects as you know. If in a few years Frost and Ratcliffe end up simply being as good as Kadri and Kapanen are now I think the Flyers would still be thrilled considering where they were drafted.
    2) Hagg was a dumpster fire the last 3/4 of the season. Goodbye and good luck however it happens.
    3) I'm almost positive I read somewhere that Zaitsev and Provorov had played together at some point, perhaps a tournament, and showed good chemistry together. If that's inaccurate then I certainly agree he's not worth bringing in.
     
  9. awaz

    awaz Well-Known Member

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    1 - Absolutely. And I'm on board for moving prospects to help the team now, just have to balance that with managing the future cap. Guys like Farabee, Frost, and Ratcliffe are key to sustaining your window. As guys like Konecny, Kapenen (if acquired), Lindblom etc. get more and more expensive, you have to have young guys on ELC or bridge deals to help mitigate that. So I worry about getting rid of Frost and Ratcliffe (really any 2 of the top 3-4 prospects), unless the return is a bonafide star. That being said, I do have to try to temper myself. Frost's stats look great, and have looked great, but elite point production typically doesn't take 2+ seasons to crack the NHL. Still though, the Flyers haven't had that kind of production from a prospect in a long time.

    2 - Definitely not a Hagg defender. I'm totally fine moving him. I just worry about replacing him with a bloated contract like Zaitsev. I don't think he's much better, but he's paid like he is.

    3. If that's true, that certainly adds to his value. I'm looking through some stat stuff, I don't see where they would've overlapped. Zaitsev is 5 years older, so that rules out Juniors and Junior national team stuff, and Provorov (somewhat surprisingly to me) has never played for the men's Russian National Team. Doesn't mean it never happened, clearly not a scientific study done in my 5 minutes here lol.
     
  10. JBM73

    JBM73 Well-Known Member

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    The biggest knock on Frost from what I've read is that he doesn't show signs (yet) of being able to play at an NHL "pace". He needs to be able to both make plays at a faster speed as well as think the game much more quickly. That says to me he's still at least a couple of years away. Big guys like Ratcliffe are also usually slower to adapt to the NHL.

    I can't find anything on Provorov or Zaitsev playing together, either, other than someone a couple of years ago anticipating them being a great future pairing for Russia. Oh well...
     
  11. raptorlife4

    raptorlife4 Long Time Member

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    I would like to get Kapanen like I have stated here before. I think we can get him on an offer sheet as the Leafs are up against it this offseason.

    I wouldnt go near Kadri.

    I just cant justify giving up Frost and ratcliffe. Both guys are coming off very solid junior seasons.
     
  12. awaz

    awaz Well-Known Member

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    I'm hoping Frost tears up the AHL this season and maybe gets a taste of the NHL towards the end of the season as an injury replacement or one of the 'bringing up a young guy as a kick in the pants going in to the playoffs' type guys that we see all the time. Pace has been what I've read too, which concerns me a little bit. That's more concerning to me than needing to add weight/muscle, because it's more of a skill/mentality thing.
     
  13. awaz

    awaz Well-Known Member

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    Offer sheeting Kapanen would be interesting. Did we talk about that? I know we talked about offer-sheeting Leafs, but I thought it was Marner.

    What do you offer Kapanen to try to get him?

    4.2M to 6.3M = 1st, 3rd
    6.3 - 8.4 = 1st, 2nd, 3rd
    8.4-10.5 = two 1st, 2nd, 3rd

    The compensation doesn't bother me up to 8.4M, but I wouldn't give Kapanen that. If you offer him 5 years 5M, does he take it? I don't think the Leafs can make that kind of commitment to him with their other deals, especially on forwards.
     
  14. raptorlife4

    raptorlife4 Long Time Member

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    Thats the big question. The Leafs also need to re up Marner and Johnsson as well. They said they want to keep Gardiner but he will get paid.

    Going to be very interesting
     
  15. JBM73

    JBM73 Well-Known Member

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  16. lasgop8

    lasgop8 Lets do this!

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  17. wbon22

    wbon22 Well-Known Member

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    I had a great conversation with a couple folks in Canadian cities and they said the same thing. The rumors of the Flyers dealing multiple assets for single assets are insane. They point out an incredible under valuing/over valuing of assets. Ghost is worth more than we in Philly may think and Kadri (for example) or Trouba (as another example) are not worth as much.

    Straight up deals, one for one, would be more equitable. Yes, there is a need to "sweeten" a deal. Ghost and a pick for Trouba. The pick being the sweetener.
     
  18. wbon22

    wbon22 Well-Known Member

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    I am thinking more and more that Myers may be the key to playing alongside Provorov. He is a right shot/natural right side player. He is mobile and physical. Is this a cop out? Maybe.

    BUT

    This would mean that you have the possibility of trading Ghost or Hagg for something.

    IMHO, I would like to see some kind of resolution on the Provorov and Sanheim contracts. Then, I want to see Hayes resolved.

    That would let everyone know what was coming next.
     
  19. lasgop8

    lasgop8 Lets do this!

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    I watched Myers in the world cup and even though he was a replacement he not only looked like he belonged on that team he excelled. He turned out to be every bit as good as the rest of the defense on team Canada.
     
  20. Screamin Eagle

    Screamin Eagle Stand for the Flag, Kneel for the Cross

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    Until the front office gets a clue the Flyers of the past will be the Flyers of the future.
    Getting rid of Holmgren would be a solid start.
     
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