The Front Office Thread

[Sackataters]

What do you think of the Niners this year? I grew up in Utah so I didn't have an NFL team, so I chose the Niners due to my extended family living there and the fact I saw it as a local team, even though Denver and Arizona were closer. I was also a Ute fan growing up, so when Alex Smith went there it was perfect for me. Sadly, that time is coming to an end, but all things must end eventually. When Alex leaves, I'll have a second team I pay attention to, but the Niners have grown on me. I wish Alex had this year to win it all and then I'd be fine with Kaep, but it wasn't guaranteed either way, so Harbaugh breaks the tie.

I'm fine with Kaep now, but only football wise. I don't like how it happened, but if they replaced him in the off-season, I'd be ok both football wise and the way it happened (though if we won with him, I'd be less confident in the switch). Mixed feelings because I still believe that the Niners could win it all with Alex, it's just Kaep could win it too and that's where Harbaugh is going.

I'm not an ardent Smith guy, but completely agree that he got a raw deal. He elevated his game each season. He didn't hurt the team and was a good manager. Sure, he rarely made the game ripping play, but just chipped and eroded at the other teams D. Kaep is decent. We know Sloan would never have handled it like that. So, ballsy move by Harbough. I can't decide now if I want the Niners or Broncos to go all the way...I think the Broncs are 1A and Niners 1B.

 

[nuraman00]

I'm not an ardent Smith guy, but completely agree that he got a raw deal. He elevated his game each season. He didn't hurt the team and was a good manager. Sure, he rarely made the game ripping play, but just chipped and eroded at the other teams D. Kaep is decent. We know Sloan would never have handled it like that. So, ballsy move by Harbough. I can't decide now if I want the Niners or Broncos to go all the way...I think the Broncs are 1A and Niners 1B.

I hate the term "game manager" for a QB.

 

[Sackataters]

How about game manager for a Jamal?

 

[MHSL82]

I hate the term "game manager" for a QB.

Most QBs need to game manage for games, until you're down or in the clutch. Even the rest, the elite, game manage a lot. Alex is clutch but inconsistent in the first 3.5 quarters. He has gotten more consistent, but when you do so, sometimes the steady production looks lower than the highs (in up and down play) and steady production isn't looked at compared to the lows (in up and down play) so it looks unspectacular. You take for granted that the lows of INTs aren't there and you start to underappreciate them. So when he loses his 2-3 games in a year, it looks like "if you had just been pressing we'd be undefeated!" But the truth is, some of those victories were won by not turning it over.

Some people say that Alex can't be a big yardage guy because he'll turn it over but also say in the same breath that Alex needs to be gunning it down the field. Replace the QB if the production's not good enough, don't ask the QB to do something you say he can't. All he can do is what he can do and the best he will do is sticking to that while he works on the rest. It'd be like an outspoken person trying to change his reputation for saying crude comments, so he talks very little from the status quo - it takes all the entertainment away but makes the PR's job easier.

 

[MHSL82]

How about game manager for a Jamal?

All PGs should try to manage the game, like Stockton was our general. PGs need to be able to score, look at Stockton's FG percentage, but they don't need to be shoot-first. There's a balance and I realize the modern trend is to look for more scoring from your PG, but give me a 12 point 10 assist guy over a 22 and 5.

 

[nuraman00]

I think it's a good term for a NBA PG but an insulting term for a NFL QB.

 

[nuraman00]

There's a balance and I realize the modern trend is to look for more scoring from your PG,

Is it really? Take away Stockton, and compare 15 PGs from the modern era to the previous era, however you want to define it.

I also think if you score more than 20, you'll have more than 5 assists. Just because you're handling the ball so much, you'll get more than 5.

Here are all guards 6'3 or shorter who averaged more than 20 but less than 6 assists:

Player Season Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

Scanning the list, there's not many players.

* A rookie Kyrie Irving

* Monta Ellis, who shares the court with Curry and Lee (averages 3+ assists himself)

* Westbrook in one of his worst years, maybe it was the lockout. He had averaged 8+ assists the year before and the year after (this year).

* One year from Gilbert Arenas (it wasn't a recurring trend). He averaged 6-7 assists the following two years, then he got hurt and sucked. We'll never know what his production would have been like over a sustained period, since he was only good for a 3-4 year span. He also played with Butler and Hughes, players who averaged 3-4 assists themselves. My guess is that if you stuck Arenas with one-dimensional SF/SGs (who one couldn't run offense though), like Korver or Marvin Williams, then Arenas would have averaged 1.5 - 2 more assists.

* One year from Mike Bibby (they later got Artest and ran the offense through him, and he averaged averaged 4.2 assists, while Brad Miller averaged 4.7 assists, and the Kings ranked 5th in team assists, so they were getting a lot of assists from their system)

* Iverson (I was a little surprised at this one, but then I looked at his career. He started getting a lot more assists, 7+ for a few years, from 2003-2004 to 2007-2008, a span of 5 years. So those Philly teams earlier in his career were probably not that good offensively (and that's true, they had a washed up offensively Mutombo, and Eric Snow, and a young Raja Bell and young Harpring). When he had slightly better players like Van Horn and Webber and Iguodala, his assists went up. As well as those Denver teams, which were better offensively than those early Philly teams.)

* Sidney Moncrief, but he looks to be the PG in name only. Paul Pressey averaged 6-8 assists for those Bucks teams in all of the years that Moncrief played. So they appeared to run their offense through Pressey, even though he was a SG/SF.


So a lot of these players who averaged less than 6 assists appeared to have outlier seasons (Westbrook, Arenas). Or players who played with SF/SFs who the offense was run though more, thus diminishing the PG's responsibilities. Those SG/SFs (or C in the Brad Miller case) had the offense run through them. The PG didn't need to create every play, those other guys would do it about 1/2 the time too.

I have a feeling Batum this year averages 3+ assists, based on how I've seen him used. They run the offense through him in the post more. Let me check.

Ok, I looked it up, Batum averages 4.5 assists. I wonder if Lillard can average more than 8.2 assists if they keep Batum's role the same in future years. Not that I'm too concerned about their offense, they're 12th in offense and given their talent level that's pretty good, but 24th in defense and 18th in rebounding, so I would say they need their backcourt to rebound more, as they only combine for 6 boards a game, which is pathetic.

 

[nuraman00]

I know there are some PGs on the low end like Aaron Brooks or Jameer Nelson (who is averaging a career high in assists this year with 7.0 but has been a 5 apg player for most of his career), but I'm wondering how an average to above average PG across the modern era to the previous era compares.

There have also been players who just weren't good at scoring or assisting, like Steve Blake, in his prime.

I don't think they're too different, and I'm seeing players like Vazquez (9.1 assists per game), Calderon, Wall, Rondo, Paul, Williams, Miller, Parker, Lillard (for a rookie), Rubio who are great at assists, and then Irving, Lawson, who might get better, might not, have to see in a few years.

Comparing that to PGs from a previous era like Strickland, Porter, Mark Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Mark Price, Kenny Anderson. Even guys like Marbury and Damon Stoudamire would average 7-9 assists.

I am trying to keep HOFs like Stockton, Kidd, and Payton out of this, as I think this discussion was more about an average to above average PG trend.

But again, why don't you create some benchmarks for scoring or assists or usage rate (What % of possessions you looked to score) and how you want to define eras, and we can see how many PGs fit your criteria of what you want, and what you don't want. And again, I prefer to exclude the top 2-3 HOFs because a "trend" typically doesn't include them but the "other guys".

And then we can see if some of the PGs were indeed the sole ballhandlers, or whether there was a situation like that Bucks one or like playing with Kobe Bryant, where there is just a dominant other player that has the offense run through him.

 

[MHSL82]

Is it really?

Yes, I'm talking about how PGs are valued and are given the respect. People want their PGs to score points or else they are minimized in the discussion. Even if not great, more so now than before. If Deron averaged 14 points and 2.5 more assists, I believe he would have had less attention despite contributing the same points.

Take away Stockton...

No, thank you.

[C]ompare 15 PGs from the modern era to the previous era, however you want to define it.

I also think if you score more than 20, you'll have more than 5 assists. Just because you're handling the ball so much, you'll get more than 5.

I forgot that you take things so literally. 5 assists to me means less than 10. I know it's rare, but I want a 8-10 apg PG. Deron was that. We might never have one, but that to me is the goal. It might not happen often, but if this weren't a scoring-oriented league, it would be more likely to happen. I say this because the PG who can score more will be chosen over the one who can get more assists. These aren't mutually exclusive, of course, but I'd be looking for the big assist guy. One caveat, though, you need a good system and teammates to get assists - so it is a bit of chicken and the egg, but it doesn't prevent having the pass first PG first.

To clarify, I wouldn't pass down a Deron type of scorer who had Deron's assists, too, but I would draft the best assist man I could who has vision, selflessness, etc., even if I doubted his scoring pedigree (though shooting percentage would be important). Hard to find, but possible to emphasize.

Here are all guards 6'3 or shorter who averaged more than 20 but less than 6 assists:

Player Season Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

Scanning the list, there's not many players.

* A rookie Kyrie Irving

* Monta Ellis, who shares the court with Curry and Lee (averages 3+ assists himself)

* Westbrook in one of his worst years, maybe it was the lockout. He had averaged 8+ assists the year before and the year after (this year).

* One year from Gilbert Arenas (it wasn't a recurring trend). He averaged 6-7 assists the following two years, then he got hurt and sucked. We'll never know what his production would have been like over a sustained period, since he was only good for a 3-4 year span. He also played with Butler and Hughes, players who averaged 3-4 assists themselves. My guess is that if you stuck Arenas with one-dimensional SF/SGs (who one couldn't run offense though), like Korver or Marvin Williams, then Arenas would have averaged 1.5 - 2 more assists.

* One year from Mike Bibby (they later got Artest and ran the offense through him, and he averaged averaged 4.2 assists, while Brad Miller averaged 4.7 assists, and the Kings ranked 5th in team assists, so they were getting a lot of assists from their system)

* Iverson (I was a little surprised at this one, but then I looked at his career. He started getting a lot more assists, 7+ for a few years, from 2003-2004 to 2007-2008, a span of 5 years. So those Philly teams earlier in his career were probably not that good offensively (and that's true, they had a washed up offensively Mutombo, and Eric Snow, and a young Raja Bell and young Harpring). When he had slightly better players like Van Horn and Webber and Iguodala, his assists went up. As well as those Denver teams, which were better offensively than those early Philly teams.)

* Sidney Moncrief, but he looks to be the PG in name only. Paul Pressey averaged 6-8 assists for those Bucks teams in all of the years that Moncrief played. So they appeared to run their offense through Pressey, even though he was a SG/SF.


So a lot of these players who averaged less than 6 assists appeared to have outlier seasons (Westbrook, Arenas). Or players who played with SF/SFs who the offense was run though more, thus diminishing the PG's responsibilities. Those SG/SFs (or C in the Brad Miller case) had the offense run through them. The PG didn't need to create every play, those other guys would do it about 1/2 the time too.

I have a feeling Batum this year averages 3+ assists, based on how I've seen him used. They run the offense through him in the post more. Let me check.

Ok, I looked it up, Batum averages 4.5 assists. I wonder if Lillard can average more than 8.2 assists if they keep Batum's role the same in future years. Not that I'm too concerned about their offense, they're 12th in offense and given their talent level that's pretty good, but 24th in defense and 18th in rebounding, so I would say they need their backcourt to rebound more, as they only combine for 6 boards a game, which is pathetic.

I think to understand my point of view, you have to understand my personality. Basketball-wise, I know I'm not sound. I like there to be an assist guy and a scorer. Stockton and Malone. I'm an individual guy, not so much a team guy. But rather than being an AI fan, my individual stat is assists. That's the type of PG I would be if I were to play. I'd be the passing QB, not the dual threat or running QB - even though I understand the benefit of being 2 dimensional.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a team guy when it comes to winning. The Jazz won because they were playing like a team. I think assists is the team-oriented stat. If you can get an assist, it involves others and may be contagious. If you score, it helps but people might start watching. So I guess, it's not just assists, it's distributing the ball.

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I can't really say "getting assists is better" because that presumes points are scored. Whereas saying shoot-first implies that there are some misses. If you pass down shots that are open just to pass the ball, that could hurt your team if they don't score. Not passing up the shot would have been better. If you can't shoot or are unwilling, that hurts your team. So shooting well and opportunistically, is important.

 

[nuraman00]

* Do you think Lebron James is a PG?

He might have averaged 8+ assists only once, but I do, based on how he plays and the decisions he makes.

* I think shoot-first should come with a clear explanation that the player is a lower efficiency shooter. Because if a PG is a 48-52% FG shooter, and he has range, then he should be a more featured part of the offense.

Here's an imperfect example: For several years (not sure about the recent years), Tony Parker was a top 5 scorer for points in the paint. That is comparing him to all players, bigs and guards. Because he was so good around the paint (and had a good FG%), I think he should have been used the way he was, because he's one of the better options on the team.

Plus, taking into account their system, it opens up all of the 3's the the Spurs would hit. The Spurs have always been one of the top 3-point % and 3-point making teams. A team like the Jazz, for example, haven't been. So because the 3-pointer is so important to the Spurs, they need to draw the defense into the paint in as many ways possible, whether it's through Duncan, Parker, or Ginobili. Parker's drives into the paint open things for their shooters like Bonner, Stephen Jackson, Roger Mason, Hedo, Brent Barry, Bowen, Ginobili, Kerr.

So again in Parker's case, he should keep driving because he's a high efficiency shot-maker in the paint, and it opens things up for the Spurs shooters.

I also think in the Jazz case, you're used to seeing one-dimensional SF and SGs who you can't run the offense through.

If a pass-first PG played with someone like Wade or Pierce or Bryant or seemingly Batum (although this is only the first year he's played like this), as well as with a PF, then the PG probably wouldn't get 8 assists a game.

So in this case, it's not that the PG is a dual threat, it's that there's an alternate threat on the team that the offense is also run through.

I'm just pointing this out since you said you look at the individual PGs assists, so I'm pointing out sometimes there are other factors as to why the PG doesn't get more assists, such as having another threat to run the offense through.

In Portland's case, I see that Terry Porter averaged 9-10 assists for a few years, while playing with Drexler. But in 1992, the 2nd year they went to the Finals, Porter averaged 5.8 assists and Drexler averaged 6.7 assists. It seems that the offense started running through Drexler more, instead of the just the PG. How would you feel about the type of system that Adelman used in Portland, with multiple threats running the offense and generating assists, or like what he did in Sacramento where Webber, Divac, Brad Miller, Doug Christie all averaged 4+ assists along with PG? In both of Adelman's stops, Portland and Sacramento, they had great team assists, but not from an individual player.

Or, what about in 1986, where Drexler averaged 8.0 assists, as Portland was transitioning from Darnell Valentine to Terry Porter? It wasn't for a lack of Porter's ability, as he showed in future years he was a constant 9+ assist guy. But at that point in time, they felt Drexler was their best playmaker, and that Porter was still too young to take the reigns, so they ran it through Drexler.

Nash may be averaging 8.8 assists this year, but it's taking playing at an incredible pace to get those assists. If the Lakers played at a moderate pace, I doubt he'd be getting 8 assists a game because of how much Bryant and Gasol have the offense run through them.

The year Stockton averaged 14.5 assists, he played on one of the slowest offenses, he could have gotten a little more of the Jazz had wanted to play faster.


I like bigs who get assists, so I always notice when one gets 3-5 assists or even more.


As for the 10apg benchmark, I think it's rare in any era to have 10apg players. Kidd only did it 3 times, so he would probably be ruled out. I think it's just hard to get 10apg, and you know Kidd tried. I'm sure there were many factors that kept him from getting that. Maybe some of it was the Nets lack of talent. The years the Nets went to the Finals, they were still terrible offensive teams, ranking 18th or worse. They were bottom 22 in some of the other years. They were good because of their defense. They had the #1 defense or top 5 some of those years.

Here are players that have done it 4 or more times:

Stockton
Magic
Nash
Oscar
Kevin Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Deron

You're only looking at 3 per era or so anyways, and you're looking at a less alive era from 1967 - 1983 in terms of someone who could repeatedly do it (Oscar-->Magic).

Rondo will probably have a 4th season in his career, he's on his 3rd.

Chris Paul could too. He had 3 such seasons, and he could have 10 assists this year, he has 9, but because of the Clippers blowouts, he's playing 3 less minutes per game than he ever has in any season.


So I think trying to draft a player who a GM thinks could get 10apg is hard, because so few exist. Even the ones who tried like Kidd or Mark Jackson couldn't do it more often. Terry Porter has several seasons with 9+ assists, and he probably would have had a a few 10+ assist seasons if he didn't play in Portland's system with Drexler constantly averaging 5+ assists and all their teamwide passing.

I'm surprised Isiah Thomas has 4 seasons.

Some guy named Kevin Porter had 3 such seasons in the 70s.

Kevin Porter NBA & ABA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com



I personally think Calderon could have done it a few times if he played on a superb defensive team that could mask his defensive weakness. Calderon was a FA though, not a draft pick. And I'm not surprised he went to Toronto, as an international city like that probably suits his lifestyle preferences more. Calderon doesn't play as many minutes as other PGs because of his defense, he gets subbed out. But I think you know the way he plays.



I also think GMs do try to find such PGs, but sometimes they don't or won't translate at the NBA level.

For example, have you heard of Jared Jordan? He was the Clippers draft pick in 2009. He averaged 8.8 assists in college his one year. He never played a NBA minute.

I'm sure the team wanted him to succeed, but he must have done so poorly in summer league and training camp that they had to cut him. But if he was good enough, another team would have signed him, right? He never got another contract offer. Again, I think given his skillset of assists, teams would have liked to see him succeed, but for whatever reason, it didn't translate. He was drafted, so therefore he was valued, right?

I think that Rondo has been valued for his assists. Rondo was the first PG drafted in 2006, and it wasn't for his shooting. He wasn't drafted very high though, as bigs were drafted first, or Brandon Roy, etc. Size usually edges out, whether right or wrong.

I think Rubio has been valued for his assists. That's what made him a prospect in the first place. And during the Olympics in 2008, that's what the nation wanted to see on the big stage, how Rubio would play for Spain, especially in the Gold Medal game. He was one of the anticipated players to watch for on that Spanish team.

If you look at Rubio's Adidas commercial, all of the highlights are passing.

Marc Stein refers to Vazques as Passquez every week in his Power Rankings, hence showing his valuing of assists.

Remember Shaun Livingston? He was another HS PG prospect who was drafted with the 4th pick in 2004 for his passing. He just didn't develop within his first 4 years, then suffered a major injury in 2007 which has now kept him to 3rd string status who gets cut every midseason.

I also think Telfair was drafted out of HS for his passing ability, but he just couldn't play at the NBA level. A short PG, who also couldn't shoot, it just didn't work out.

I think there are a lot of prospects who people think could be good but just can't do it at the NBA level. Or they get hurt.

Bobby Hurley was drafted for his passing, and averaged 6.1 assists in 26 mins his rookie year, but then got hit by a drunk driver 19 games into the season and his career was never the same after that.

It appears that there's a few players who people thought could be good assisters either got hurt, couldn't play at the NBA level, or just weren't 10apg good. It's rare for them to get that good.


I think you're correlating PGs having less assists with having more points, but they could be having less assists than before (how hard it is to get 10+ assists) and they could be scoring less too.

That's why I suggested looking at an average PG in an era instead of a top one, to see if there is a trend.

But you also explained how you feel the perception toward PGs is too. In which case I can't quantify a perception about attitudes.

 

[nuraman00]

Tinsley is another example. He is not a shoot-first PG.

But I don't think he could get 10apg even if he started and tried to get 10apg, on this Jazz team.

The Jazz run the offense through Jefferson a lot, and Jefferson starts to make moves and passes back out. Thus it becomes a broken play, and either Jefferson or someone else will get an assist if someone scores, not Tinsley. Or, Jefferson has so many fakes and moves that the chance for an assist will be over.

Jefferson is used as a creator more than a finisher, partially because he can't finish as well.

 

[nuraman00]

Deron didn't average 10apg with Jefferson either, he averaged 9.7, and I think that was with a better Jefferson too. (Quicker.)

 

[nuraman00]

So what I'm seeing is that you have PGs that averaged 10apg once or twice, but not more than that.

So if they did it once or twice, why couldn't they do it again?

I don't think it's because they changed their mentality. The PGs that could reach this, had to have been pass-first.

So there must be other factors that contributed to each unique case.

For example, with Jose Calderon, I've brought up his Assist % before, but I know you don't like it when I use that. But what I'm trying to show is that because his assist % is high, that he has the same mentality as other pass-first PGs. But his case, he's not able to get 10apg, partially because they have to take him off the floor for defense. He plays less minutes, because he's a defensive liability.

Calderon shoots even less than Stockton did, for example.

Mark Price and Terrell Brandon were other PGs who averaged a lot of assists, but not quite 10. Price only had 2 seasons with 9+, 9.1 and 10.4. And he shot about the same amount as Stockton. I think Price had the same kind of pass-first mentality, but just because he didn't average 10apg+, doesn't mean he was more of a shoot-first either.

With other players, maybe the team changed schemes a little, or brought in another player to run the offense through, such as a SG or SF.

Maybe those other teams took more 3's. The PG is the least likely to get an assist on a 3-pointer, unless it's a player that can hit 3's coming off screens (Ray Allen, Stojakovic, Reggie Miller, Korver). But most 3-point shooters are catch-and-shoot players. For those players, a big man or SF/SG is most likely to get an assist, because the ball was in the paint, and one of them kicked it back out to a 3-point shooter.

The Jazz rarely attempted 3's, ranking worse than 20s in most of the Stockton years (and many years in the 27-29 range).

The Spurs, meanwhile, attempt a lot of 3's, many years in the top 10.

Maybe the team is blowout out a lot of teams, and thus the PG plays less minutes. I've mentioned that the Jazz rarely had a top record in the Stockton years, which is partially why he or Malone didn't get more MVP consideration, and why Sloan didn't get more Coach Of The Year recognition.

So the Jazz were likely in closer games, and thus needed more from their PGs.

Chris Paul this year, for example, averages 3 less minutes than normal, and the Clippers have one of the best point-differentials, +9.6. A quick scan at the Jazz reveals they only had 7+ once, in 1997 (+9.6).

You also mentioned that the Jazz never had a legit backup for Stockton.

The Clippers have Bledsoe and Crawford, and soon Billups too, who can play PG.

Ok, Paul shoots a little more in the 4th, but that's because Griffin and Jordan can't be counted on, and they can't make FTs either, so Paul shooting is the best option for the way they run the team. Although I think a better coach could run different sets so other players could get good shots too. But those other players wouldn't create an assist for the PG in my way, it would be more about big to big passing, like Odom to Griffin. Just like Boozer to Noah or Noah to Boozer in Chicago.

That brings up another idea. What if the Jazz had two bigs that could pass to each other, like other teams have had (Grizzlies, Hawks, Bulls, Spurs with Duncan to Robinson, etc.)? That's just another way one could run the offense, rather than through the PG.

None of this is taking away from Stockton, but rather trying to examine why other PGs haven't done 10apg more often.

As this discussion is more about PGs in general.


And maybe it doesn't happen more often just because. I've mentioned that I don't think Tinsley could get 10apg even if he tried. When watching how the offense works, it just doesn't look like he could get that many, and he is averaging 5.25 FGAs in his 12 starts. So he's shooting even less than a Stockton, for example. With barely any FTAs either, lol.


So from my observations from watching other teams, sometimes I see PGs with a similar passing mentality, yet they still don't seem capable of averaging 10apg. And they're not shooting much either, about the same, or in Tinsley's case, less than a Stockton. I think some of it is about the Jazz schemes. (I don't think it's the same Flex offense as the Sloan one.) And maybe Hayward takes on more of a creator role than Hornacek.

So there must be other reasons why it's so hard to do. I've listed some possible ones. It could be a combination of a lot of things. I don't think teammates make that much of a difference, whether good ones or bad ones. But schemes do (such as having a SF/SF to run the offense through, instead of SG/SF/PF as finishers only).

So I don't think it's from a lack of trying to get assists, but for whatever reasons, it just doesn't seem to happen. Because I'm seeing PGs that don't shoot much, but also don't get 10apg either (while playing decent minutes), and I think they have the right mentality to try and get 10 apg.

Again, this post is more about whether PGs have the same mentality as other pass-first, and I think they do, even if they don't average 10apg. Because some of these guys, I think they're making the right decision, and also not shooting much, when I watch them play.

 

[Sackataters]

Wow, Nura, I dunno if I can hang with you guys. Stats are not my forte...more of a visceral observational gut instinct kind of guy. Your stuff makes for a good read though.

You guys familiar with the jazz nation forum? Just stumbled upon it today.

 

[MHSL82]

Wow, Nura, I dunno if I can hang with you guys. Stats are not my forte...more of a visceral observational gut instinct kind of guy. Your stuff makes for a good read though.

You guys familiar with the jazz nation forum? Just stumbled upon it today.

There's no guilt by association here! Nuraman's the guilty party of being a stat guy. He's the one speaking gibberish.

 

[nuraman00]

Wow, Nura, I dunno if I can hang with you guys. Stats are not my forte...more of a visceral observational gut instinct kind of guy. Your stuff makes for a good read though.

You guys familiar with the jazz nation forum? Just stumbled upon it today.

Lol. Not every discussion will be this detailed.

No, never been to Jazz Nation. But I'm more about conversing with quality people, and I've known you and MHSL82 for years, so I like it.

I'm familiar with the discussions we've had, and I know both of your styles.

It would be an adjustment to learn others' styles, and I might not fit in myself.

 

[nuraman00]

There's no guilt by association here! Nuraman's the guilty party of being a stat guy. He's the one speaking gibberish.

You didn't have to be so kind.

You could have used the 4-letter "s" word that rhymes with nit.

 

[MHSL82]

I think it's a good term for a NBA PG but an insulting term for a NFL QB.

Yes, it is an insult. Especially for Alex Smith. He did poorly to start, people made their assumptions on him and written him off. When he started to do well, people had to substantiate their prior reaction. Well, it's Harbaugh. False. He started his good play after the Philadelphia game in 2010 - before Harbaugh. His numbers bear that out. Well, it's the defense! Alex's offense won the Saints game after the defense was too tired to hold up. Well, it's the running game! Alex knew the offense so well that he audibled in and out of running plays, something that has been a casualty in the switch to Kaep. We run just as much but are less effective at getting yards. Alex knew when to go with the run or the pass, Kaep will and is getting better. He has other things that are better than Smith. Alex benefited from Harbaugh, defense, and special teams, but he did his part beyond managing the game. He's a team guy who cares about winning, he's not the guy to pass three times from the one to get better numbers and not the rushing TD or FG. He bought into the system and the system restricts. Even Kaep's numbers are modest (experience and the fact that the offense was built for Smith is the culprit, here - but it's not just the QB, even though they built part of the system based upon their personnel, including the QB Smith.)

Calling Smith a game manager is the catch all - the "oh did I say bust?" I meant, "game manager." I'm not wrong in the slightest. When I said that he can't be a winner in the NFL? I meant, he won't win it for you? He's a game manager who manages wins. He won it last year's Saints game? Well, he managed the game until that point.

Alex is not the best QB ever, there are plenty of QBs that could be seen as better, it's just the game manager label was an insult and it was made to slowly backtrack. Unfortunately, Alex got hurt and now people can resume their criticisms of him without chance of being wrong if we were to win with him.

 

[nuraman00]

Alex is not the best QB ever, there are plenty of QBs that could be seen as better, it's just the game manager label was an insult and it was made to slowly backtrack. Unfortunately, Alex got hurt and now people can resume their criticisms of him without chance of being wrong if we were to win with him.

Some are retracking now on the game-manager label. (If that makes sense.)

 

[nuraman00]

I think you have some offenses where the PG runs the offense on every play.

But on other teams, you have a high post offense some of the time (or in Adelman's case, most of the time), where the PF is used to run the offense. He's used not as a screener, but as a passer. He can pass it back out for some 3's or pass it to the other big for a layup.

Basketball Offense - 2-1-2 Offense, Coach's Clipboard Playbook

I've noticed that Odom, for example, can't score this year, he can't make layups. So instead, they use him in the high post to run some plays.

Other teams have other ways in which the PG does not run the offense some of the time.

Back in 2004-2005, Boston did have Gary Payton at PG, but they actually ran the offense through Pierce from the foul line. Payton's job was to mainly just give it to Pierce, let him isolate and then pass to cutters or score on an isolation move. They didn't ask Payton to break down the defense in the paint, but just bring the ball past midcourt and give it to someone else.