Rule Change Question

[MHSL82]

I'm not suggesting this as a rule change just asking what you guys think about it.

I was watching a game where the team was third and goal from the 1 yard line and there was an encroachment by the defense penalty. It gave them half the distance to the goal and normally it would've been a first down but instead is third and goal again because it was for less than a yard. I know how a half yard is a big thing in the NFL, but it seems also a little bit different to not give them the effect of a five yarder in downs. But then again, the goal was the "goal" (end zone).

I was wondering what you guys thought about a rule change that would give the team a first down in that situation (with or without the half the distance to the goal)? I realize that would mean nothing on a penalty on first down. They can't fix everything.

If we were to take this broader, they could also do it on the other end. For example, if you were first and 10 on the two yard line and false start, the play could then be first and 14 from the one. (You have to move the ball back, that's only fair.) This one might be similar to how half a yard is big in the NFL on goal-line stands. Being moved back to the 1 yard line is a bigger punishment than 5 yards anywhere else. However, they could punish both up to five yards total. It would be strange to see first and 13 from the two, but we'd get used to it. I know they've never moved the yard line to gain like this before, though.

There could also be a little change regarding holding and pass interference on the defense, where they give first downs as opposed to placing it on the spot or five yards.

Cann/Would you ever decline an intentional delay of game that was taken in hopes of giving the punter room to pin it'd at the five or do you always take the yards and challenge them? I've neverr noticed it being declined... Maybe I wasn't paying attention. Are dead ball fouls decline le or never declined because it wouldn't make sense to do so?

What you guys think?

 

[Wazmankg]

Sounds good to me. But only a first down if the 5 yards would have given them a 1st down if they were not on the 1 and I don't see why it should be limited to 3rd downs. I've never liked that 1/2 the distance to the goal line business anyway. Push it as far as the penalty calls for down to the 1 yard line. Why should a team gain an advantage because they're backed up ? It should apply to both the offense & defense. If you're on your 7 and get called for holding, you're now on your 1.

I have seen the delay penalty to give the punter more room declined, fwiw.

 

[TobyTyler]

I'm not suggesting this as a rule change just asking what you guys think about it.

I was watching a game where the team was third and goal from the 1 yard line and there was an encroachment by the defense penalty. It gave them half the distance to the goal and normally it would've been a first down but instead is third and goal again because it was for less than a yard. I know how a half yard is a big thing in the NFL, but it seems also a little bit different to not give them the effect of a five yarder in downs. But then again, the goal was the "goal" (end zone).

I was wondering what you guys thought about a rule change that would give the team a first down in that situation (with or without the half the distance to the goal)? I realize that would mean nothing on a penalty on first down. They can't fix everything.

If we were to take this broader, they could also do it on the other end. For example, if you were first and 10 on the two yard line and false start, the play could then be first and 14 from the one. (You have to move the ball back, that's only fair.) This one might be similar to how half a yard is big in the NFL on goal-line stands. Being moved back to the 1 yard line is a bigger punishment than 5 yards anywhere else. However, they could punish both up to five yards total. It would be strange to see first and 13 from the two, but we'd get used to it. I know they've never moved the yard line to gain like this before, though.

There could also be a little change regarding holding and pass interference on the defense, where they give first downs as opposed to placing it on the spot or five yards.

Cann/Would you ever decline an intentional delay of game that was taken in hopes of giving the punter room to pin it'd at the five or do you always take the yards and challenge them? I've neverr noticed it being declined... Maybe I wasn't paying attention. Are dead ball fouls decline le or never declined because it wouldn't make sense to do so?

What you guys think?

Good thought. I understand your frustration with such a situation and I share it but I think there have been enough rule changes designed to help the offense lately. This would be yet another one. I think we need to leave something to the defense so I'd leave the rule the way it is.

 

[FourBeeDen]

I'm not suggesting this as a rule change just asking what you guys think about it.

I was watching a game where the team was third and goal from the 1 yard line and there was an encroachment by the defense penalty. It gave them half the distance to the goal and normally it would've been a first down but instead is third and goal again because it was for less than a yard. I know how a half yard is a big thing in the NFL, but it seems also a little bit different to not give them the effect of a five yarder in downs. But then again, the goal was the "goal" (end zone).

I was wondering what you guys thought about a rule change that would give the team a first down in that situation (with or without the half the distance to the goal)? I realize that would mean nothing on a penalty on first down. They can't fix everything.

If we were to take this broader, they could also do it on the other end. For example, if you were first and 10 on the two yard line and false start, the play could then be first and 14 from the one. (You have to move the ball back, that's only fair.) This one might be similar to how half a yard is big in the NFL on goal-line stands. Being moved back to the 1 yard line is a bigger punishment than 5 yards anywhere else. However, they could punish both up to five yards total. It would be strange to see first and 13 from the two, but we'd get used to it. I know they've never moved the yard line to gain like this before, though.

There could also be a little change regarding holding and pass interference on the defense, where they give first downs as opposed to placing it on the spot or five yards.

Cann/Would you ever decline an intentional delay of game that was taken in hopes of giving the punter room to pin it'd at the five or do you always take the yards and challenge them? I've neverr noticed it being declined... Maybe I wasn't paying attention. Are dead ball fouls decline le or never declined because it wouldn't make sense to do so?

What you guys think?

Interesting but then would an offense pinned down on their own 1 yard line and commits a penalty lose a down because the distance is not the normal distance for the penalty?

 

[Wazmankg]

Interesting but then would an offense pinned down on their own 1 yard line and commits a penalty lose a down because the distance is not the normal distance for the penalty?

I like he's just suggesting adding the yardage to how far the offense has to go to get the first down.

 

[FourBeeDen]

I like he's just suggesting adding the yardage to how far the offense has to go to get the first down.

So on their own 1 yard line, the penalty is half the distance as well, meaning they will move the ball back 6 inches. They will still be on the same down as before. He is suggesting that if the Offense only has goal to go on the 1 yard line and the defense commits a penalty it would also give the offense first down because the distance penalty is half the distance to the goal which is advancing the ball 6 inches. That's a huge advantage for the offense giving them another 4 downs for a TD

 

[MHSL82]

Interesting but then would an offense pinned down on their own 1 yard line and commits a penalty lose a down because the distance is not the normal distance for the penalty?

I meant that it would move to the one and instead of being 1st and 11 it would be 1st and 15. Add to the "to go" yardage. They shouldn't lose a down because that isn't what happens on the rest of the field.

 

[FourBeeDen]

I meant that it would move to the one and instead of being 1st and 11 it would be 1st and 15. Add to the "to go" yardage. They shouldn't lose a down because that isn't what happens on the rest of the field.

So basically what you're suggesting on this scenario is moving the 1st down marker farther but the offense will still be on the 1 yard line and not move back. That's still an advantage for the offense. Instead of being able to pin them back closer to the goal line, they will still have a little bit of breathing room to work with. The chances of the defense scoring a safety gets better the closer the LOS is to the goal line. So by doing what you're suggesting, the defense loses odds on scoring a safety

 

[MHSL82]

So basically what you're suggesting on this scenario is moving the 1st down marker farther but the offense will still be on the 1 yard line and not move back. That's still an advantage for the offense. Instead of being able to pin them back closer to the goal line, they will still have a little bit of breathing room to work with. The chances of the defense scoring a safety gets better the closer the LOS is to the goal line. So by doing what you're suggesting, the defense loses odds on scoring a safety

I can't believe I messed up my own explanation! My fault. I was talking about from the 2. I meant pin them back on the half the distance (1) and 1st and 14. A little math for the refs wouldn't hurt anyone, even if it included half or quarter yards. So if it started from the 1, it would be pushed back to the half yard mark and be 1st and 14.5. They already place the ball in between two yards, not everything is rounded up. For the viewing audience it would say 1st and 14 and the first down marker would be at the 15.

I understand how it could help the offense in one case but hurt them on the other (if pinning them is included). My goal was to make five yards accounted for - punish the penalized team the five yards or the first down that would have resulted otherwise. This would only be necessary near the endzones. Holding from the 6 would turn a 1st and 10 on the 6 to a 2nd and 17 from the 3. Similar for offensive pass interference or unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

[TobyTyler]

Interesting but then would an offense pinned down on their own 1 yard line and commits a penalty lose a down because the distance is not the normal distance for the penalty?

That's a good point.

 

[imac_21]

So basically what you're asking for is that any defensive penalty inside the 5 be an automatic first down?

I'm not a real big fan. I'd be okay with it in situations that aren't goal-to-go, I think. If it was 2nd and 4 on the 5 (get to the 1 for a first down) and the defense jumps, then I guess I could kind of be okay with a first down. Maybe. Kind of.

But if it's 3rd and goal and the defense jumps, it shouldn't be an automatic first down.

What's always bothered me, and is related, is that if it's 2nd and goal on the 2 and the defense jumps offside the ball moves "forward" one yard. If on the next play the offense false starts the ball goes back to the 6. These are two penalties that are supposed to be "equals" yet around the goal line the offense is punished much more than the defense.

I don't know what the solution is, or if anything should be considered, but it's always bothered me.

 

[MHSL82]

So basically what you're asking for is that any defensive penalty inside the 5 be an automatic first down?

I'm not a real big fan. I'd be okay with it in situations that aren't goal-to-go, I think. If it was 2nd and 4 on the 5 (get to the 1 for a first down) and the defense jumps, then I guess I could kind of be okay with a first down. Maybe. Kind of.

But if it's 3rd and goal and the defense jumps, it shouldn't be an automatic first down.

What's always bothered me, and is related, is that if it's 2nd and goal on the 2 and the defense jumps offside the ball moves "forward" one yard. If on the next play the offense false starts the ball goes back to the 6. These are two penalties that are supposed to be "equals" yet around the goal line the offense is punished much more than the defense.

I don't know what the solution is, or if anything should be considered, but it's always bothered me.

Interesting perspective, thanks for the response. I do agree with you on the one yard penalty on the defense but five yard for the offense.

What do you think about the options for the other end of the field: 1st and 10 on the 2 yard line, false start. As is - push back to one-yard line, 1st and 11. Alternative: 1st and 14 from the 1. Take whatever yards that half the distance is and assess the remaining on the go-to part.

If the penalty is on 1st and 10 at the 7 they could push it back to the 2 and have 1st and 15 or push back to the 3.5 yards and make it first and 13.5 (screen says 1st and 13, but the first down marker is appropriately placed.

Note: this wouldn't be a team choice. I'm asking about standard treatment for all cases where they can't (or don't typically as it is now) assess the full yardage. Also, down doesn't matter, I just used first down as an example. The down would be repeated regardless on dead ball fouls.

I alluded to a similar treatment for offensive pass interference or holding, moving the go to as well as the ball back to where they already move it to.

So, no changing where the ball goes, just the go-to to reflect the full yardage.