Randy Johnson Scoffed at Pitch Counts

[PolarVortex]

I did some research on Randy Johnson's pitch counts. From 1990-2002, a span of 13 seasons, he put up individual game pitch counts at a frequency that would boggle the mind of today's managers and pitching coaches.

160+ pitches = 2
150+ = 9
140+ = 42
130+ = 102
120+ = 198
Starts = 384
percentage of starts of 120+ pitches = 51.6%

There were several other allstar level pitchers to compare him to in the 1990-2002 time span: Maddux (434 starts), Wells (354 starts), Clemens(399 starts), Glavine(433 starts), Smoltz (320 starts), Cone (337 starts), Mussina (355 starts), Moyer (293 starts), Schilling (299 starts), Finley (404 starts), Kevin Brown (376 starts), and Kenny Rogers The Pitcher (304 starts).

So far, I ran the numbers on Maddux and Wells...

Wells:
160+ = 0
150+ = 1
140+ = 3
130+ = 10
120+ = 38
starts = 354
percentage of starts of 120+ pitches or more = 10.7 %

Maddux:
160+ = 0
150+ = 0
140+ = 2
130+ = 5
120+ = 30
starts = 434
percentage of starts of 120+ pitches or more = 06.9 %

 

[JMR]

One question I would have about Maddux is whether he was still getting late into games with much fewer pitches. He was one of the most efficient pitchers of his era or at least it seemed.

 

[PolarVortex]

One question I would have about Maddux is whether he was still getting late into games with much fewer pitches. He was one of the most efficient pitchers of his era or at least it seemed.

Maddux one of the biggest strike zones of any MLB pitcher I've ever watched pitch. Every single umpire in MLB would give him a very generous strike zone all the way around the zone. That probably helped keep his pitch count down. Hitters knew they had to go up to the plate swinging.

 

[NWinAZ]

And the more they use pitch counts, the more severe injuries seem to be popping up.

 

[PolarVortex]

And the more they use pitch counts, the more severe injuries seem to be popping up.

Yep. There could be a psychological factor at play. A starter knows he will only have 95-105 pitches so economizes by overthrowing the fastball and snapping off breaking pitches as hard as he can. If he came in with the mindset that he was going to get 115-130 pitches if he was pitching well, it might change his approach.

 

[NWinAZ]

Yep. There could be a psychological factor at play. A starter knows he will only have 95-105 pitches so economizes by overthrowing the fastball and snapping off breaking pitches as hard as he can. If he came in with the mindset that he was going to get 115-130 pitches if he was pitching well, it might change his approach.

Agree 100%. Plus you can't have nicknames like 'bulldog' when you are getting pulled at 100 pitches because you are at 100 pitches...

 

[wazzu31]

You have to factor in the vsginizing of youth baseball as well. There never use to be pitch counts in non pro ball. The worse they'd have if you can pitch in back to back games. It's more muscle memory and them being use to throwing more pitches than psychological. Unless we are talking about Bedard. The more you practice or get more experience the better you are, or IMO the less chance of injury. IMO, unless a pitch count is zero there isn't any precaution that will save an arm. I still remember in HS, every scout, coach or expert raved about Mark Prior and his perfect mechanics. Perfect mechanics and a pitch count worked well on that arm.

 

[Shaggy]

I did some research on Randy Johnson's pitch counts. From 1990-2002, a span of 13 seasons, he put up individual game pitch counts at a frequency that would boggle the mind of today's managers and pitching coaches.

160+ pitches = 2
150+ = 9
140+ = 42
130+ = 102
120+ = 198
Starts = 384
percentage of starts of 120+ pitches = 51.6%

There were several other allstar level pitchers to compare him to in the 1990-2002 time span: Maddux (434 starts), Wells (354 starts), Clemens(399 starts), Glavine(433 starts), Smoltz (320 starts), Cone (337 starts), Mussina (355 starts), Moyer (293 starts), Schilling (299 starts), Finley (404 starts), Kevin Brown (376 starts), and Kenny Rogers The Pitcher (304 starts).

So far, I ran the numbers on Maddux and Wells...

Wells:
160+ = 0
150+ = 1
140+ = 3
130+ = 10
120+ = 38
starts = 354
percentage of starts of 120+ pitches or more = 10.7 %

Maddux:
160+ = 0
150+ = 0
140+ = 2
130+ = 5
120+ = 30
starts = 434
percentage of starts of 120+ pitches or more = 06.9 %

Great compiling. It is pretty crazy how different the amount of pitches a pitcher goes through now then back then. I really think the pitchers today can go more then 100 but they don't want to over do them over the year.

 

[PolarVortex]

You have to factor in the vsginizing of youth baseball as well. There never use to be pitch counts in non pro ball. The worse they'd have if you can pitch in back to back games. It's more muscle memory and them being use to throwing more pitches than psychological. Unless we are talking about Bedard. The more you practice or get more experience the better you are, or IMO the less chance of injury. IMO, unless a pitch count is zero there isn't any precaution that will save an arm. I still remember in HS, every scout, coach or expert raved about Mark Prior and his perfect mechanics. Perfect mechanics and a pitch count worked well on that arm.

Dusty Baker has long been accused of killing the arms of Prior and Wood. But when you look at the stats, neither pitcher had the type of pitch counts that RJ, Clemens and Chuck Finley had.
% of starts of 120+ pitches (years 1990-2003)
Johnson = 51.9%
Clemens = 37.1%
Finley = 27.5%
Prior (career total)= 16.5%
Wood (career total) = 16.4%

So, it might be something as simple (and as complex) as genetics.

 

[PolarVortex]

Great compiling. It is pretty crazy how different the amount of pitches a pitcher goes through now then back then. I really think the pitchers today can go more then 100 but they don't want to over do them over the year.

Being a DBacks fan, you might be interested in how Schilling faired in those years:
299 starts
78 starts of 120+ pitches = 26.1%

26.1% is actually pretty high. You can't compare him to RJ and Clemens. Those two guys were fucking animals and on an entirely different level.

 

[wazzu31]

Dusty Baker has long been accused of killing the arms of Prior and Wood. But when you look at the stats, neither pitcher had the type of pitch counts that RJ, Clemens and Chuck Finley had.
% of starts of 120+ pitches (years 1990-2003)
Johnson = 51.9%
Clemens = 37.1%
Finley = 27.5%
Prior (career total)= 16.5%
Wood (career total) = 16.4%

So, it might be something as simple (and as complex) as genetics.

I know Dusty has just as Lasorda for Fernando. Glad you brought up the numbers cause I'm just going off of recollection. I don't recall Prior or Woods every being over spent. Mainly recall the Bartman NLCS that it was a big deal they sent him back out there. Just to me, old school guy's arms were use to pitching more so wouldn't tire out like today's pitchers. If your arm never goes past 100 pitches it's not going to be as effective when you go past that.

Didn't Randy throw a 9 inning no hitter in an opener against Cleveland but it went to extras and he lost it?

 

[blstoker]

Something like 5 years ago I saw a blip on sportcenter or something, about how the Cardinals were extending their pitchers' pitch counts by not having them throw as many warm up pitches before games. At the time, it was stated that the average starting pitcher would throw around 60 pitches to warm up for a game. By throwing only 30 warm up pitches, the Cardinals starters were throwing 120+ pitches something like 5 times more often than the rest of the league. Now, whether that is still the case today - or that I am remembering it correctly (I tried to find it, but I couldn't), I don't know, but it appears that pitchers today also throw a lot more to warm up and on off days than they used to.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

But yet we traded him... LOL.. Ah Mariners ...