pitching

[JohnU]

Nowhere to go but up, eh? Lol

Lack of developing is whats really killing us.

Part of it is the ballpark and launch angle. Hitters are going for home runs now and GABP is murder on pitchers who continue to let hitters yank fly balls.

I'd spend the $19 million Bob C has floating around to raise the outfield wall 4 feet and shove the seats back another 10 rows. It's not like it is gonna hurt attendance.

 

[CB3UK]

Part of it is the ballpark and launch angle. Hitters are going for home runs now and GABP is murder on pitchers who continue to let hitters yank fly balls.

I'd spend the $19 million Bob C has floating around to raise the outfield wall 4 feet and shove the seats back another 10 rows. It's not like it is gonna hurt attendance.

I agree. It would make us a more attractive home for FA pitching as well. I appreciate all the fan amenities he shells out money for at GABP, but I would much rather that money go into the roster. As long as I have access to beer and somewhere to hit the bathroom, Im good. Put a winning team out there and the stands will fill up and then you generate revenue to jazz up GABP. People dont come for bobbleheads and fireworks, they come to watch winning baseball.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Roark is an Indy kid- same high school as Barnhart and Lance Lynn. Seems the Reds have to have an angle to get anyone of note that isn’t unemployed. He’s a vet that must keep the ball down to be effective. For all the hype about young arms in the organization, they haven’t had much success locating in a preferred spot in the zone.

“Teaching” pitchers to pitch in their 4th or 6th pro year is a failed concept. It’s about results at the MLB level past their rookie season. The Reds simply don’t have a plus .500 competitive MLB pitching staff...

Talking about Lorenzen as a part time OF won’t help the pitching, although the Reds OF hasn’t hit that much either. If current infielders stay put, upcoming ones must be converted to OF(Senzel ?). Tough to imagine the Reds “managing” pitchers as OF’s. I’d suggest they better manage them into pichers.

Speaking of OF’s...careful what you ask for-loss of Hamilton’s D guarantees less outs for those location challenged pitchers. I’ll eat my words if his replacement hits .280...don’t hold your breath.

 

[JohnU]

Speaking of OF’s...careful what you ask for-loss of Hamilton’s D guarantees less outs for those location challenged pitchers. I’ll eat my words if his replacement hits .280...don’t hold your breath.

There's no doubt they won't upgrade on the field, but they can do it cheaper.

 

[JohnU]

Harvey signing with the Angels. Has anybody looked at the Anaheimales roster? They got more ex-Reds pitching for them. I figured Harvey would go there at the deadline, was surprised he didn't. The Reds get nothing, which may be a win-win.

 

[seattlefan75]

Mike Leake has been discussed if the Reds want to drive the truck over to Seattle for the clearance sale. I'd accept Leake if the Mariners split the cost. So many mid-range pitchers are just under the radar but that's no surprise, as has been pointed out. The scribes have their list of the top guys and since the list is already written, they just share it with a new "this team is looking for starting pitchers ...." as if anybody wasn't.

We got you fam we can trade you Mike Leake for Tony Santillan

 

[JohnU]

We got you fam we can trade you Mike Leake for Tony Santillan

Sounds like a bargain. Let me talk this over with Banana Bob.

 

[seattlefan75]

Sounds like a bargain. Let me talk this over with Banana Bob.

if you play your cards right we can throw in kyle seager, he is good as long as nobody shifts on him

 

[JohnU]

if you play your cards right we can throw in kyle seager, he is good as long as nobody shifts on him

We can just play him against lefties.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Take this with a grain (or box) of salt....I just read a "rumor" the Reds and Indians talking trade for KLUBER. They want Senzel and Trammel...I'd say a 33 year old Cy Young winner signed thru 2021 wouldn't prefer to pitch until he's 36 in GABP with a last place team....I'm skeptical this is real of course, but I saw the Reds sell Griffey, Jr. as a one horse rodeo to the fans, so I could see it as a fan draw again...but unless they find 8 more pitchers to go with him, in the next year or two, I see this a a waste of money, younger, cheaper talent (a top 10 and top 50 prospect who wouldn't be too old to contribute to a contender in 2021, as would Kluber), without effecting the standings much.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Hamilton in KC....big park...George Brett still hangs out around BP there... wouldn't surprise me if Hamilton hits .280 and steals 125 bags there next year.

 

[JohnU]

I think I'd do Kluber for Senzel and Iglesias, if they throw in the knife for the peanut butter, if they throw in the peanut butter. I would like to see Senzel at least have the chance to do what he can do.

Cleveland probably won't do that deal because they aren't in a position to rebuild anything.

I guess I remain jealous of our top picks but I am constantly reminded that the pitching that was supposed to develop is being released by the teams that pick it all up from the Reds off the waiver wire.

Dunno, 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

I think the Reds could do Trever Bauer for a lot less,

Trammell mjight be the real deal in CF,.

Maybe Cleveland will do Winker and Iglesias.

 

[CB3UK]

Id love to add Kluber but not if it means sacrificing our top prospects for a short term "fix" (and I use that term loosely.) We need to develop our guys in Louisville.

 

[JohnU]

Hamilton in KC....big park...George Brett still hangs out around BP there... wouldn't surprise me if Hamilton hits .280 and steals 125 bags there next year.

KC is inert but Hamilton will at least not have to compete with the pitcher for fewest bunts.

 

[JohnU]

Id love to add Kluber but not if it means sacrificing our top prospects for a short term "fix" (and I use that term loosely.) We need to develop our guys in Louisville.

If this is about moving up the 4th place, I'd rather finish 5th.

 

[CB3UK]

If this is about moving up the 4th place, I'd rather finish 5th.

Bingo. Weve sat through several years of mediocrity in order to rebuild. Selling off some of the framework on that foundation for a quick fix that, like you said, isnt going to get us from 68 to 88 wins is foolhardy.


A concerted effort to acquire several quality pitchers for club friendly terms, I can get on board with parting with some pieces like Trammel, India, Greene, Senzel.

But Id rather give the new staff and club philosophy a chance to develop some guys first and try out some arms like maybe Lorenzen before just handing Cleveland a sweetheart deal like that.

 

[JohnU]

For sure, the pitching needs to be better. We know a quality staff can win in that ballpark. It's happened 3 times this decade, if you are just interested in season results, which is basically all you can really count on.

There isn't anybody on this staff that can do what the 2012 staff did and if anybody thinks that is possible, it just isn't.

So Roark on a 1-year deal is OK, he's as good as Harvey.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Dunno about new staff or "club philosophy"....I think it just takes a lot more talent, and after that, even a little better use of it makes everything a lot easier. 6 better pitchers would make an instant Manager of the Year candidate out of damned near any Reds manager.

I'm a big fan of a philosophy change in Cincinnati though...I could write a book there...I'd start with the Owner and GM's philosophy on the farm system...(cynical on purpose here and work up from there. Did they think a 5 year rebuild was to trade for a single 33 year old pitcher ? That's not a rebuild, it's a fresh coat of paint on a house full of termites.

Several of us have railed for years about horrible plate philosophy and inability to move runners...but the PITCHING is THE hole that sinks the Reds ship most, and IMO, pitching philosophy isn't worth a damn without consistently hitting that mitt with something better than batting practice salt on it.

So, until I see repetition of pitches being consistently executed by the Reds, I have to believe the axiom "all else equal, the simplest answer is best".. and that simple answer is the pitching staff (meaning as a whole, not necessarily individuals) isn't talented enough to win.


Devils advocate here...Kluber would be a MAJOR improvement....BUT, if you replace Kluber's stats for the Reds "worst" SP- Homer Bailey, for instance, you can't just expect 18 more wins, without the rest of a capable pitching staff behind him...I'd feel a lot better about a guy like Kluber if the Reds won 82-83 or more last year, or even ONCE in the last 4 years...or if they had 6 or 8 guys that looked like they could find the plate without giving up multiple baserunners in back to back innings...lol...or if they decided to raise the payroll by $30 Mil /yr and got another top shelfer or three...but this is a team that struggles to win 70. It takes more than 1-2 starting pitchers, I fear.

Does anyone believe the rest of the Reds roster can be division winning caliber before Votto and Kluber are too old to matter ?

I'd hate to see the Reds on the 3 year hook for Kluber's salary, and have him pitch to no avail, while our 2 best minor leaguers become stars in Cleveland. Mario Soto was in a similar role back in the 100 loss years in the 80's....I also know they can't win just bringing up players to be released later. It's a conundrum.

 

[JohnU]

Looking at the prospects list, which is connected to scouting numbers 50 40 30 etc ... I suppose ... seems they have some check marks.
1. Senzel
2. Trammell
3. Greene
4. India
5. Santillan

Greene is off the charts so far with his rehab.
India may be the real deal, but he strikes out 30 percent of the time. He's a college-cured hitter. Gotta wonder on that. Do we believe he will change?

Santillan walks about 3 guys every 9. Throws hard but his Ks are not that great because he has no command.

So if they dump Senzel and Trammell for Kluber, the next guy in line is 19 years old.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Unfortunately, after adding 2 journeyman SP, I still think the Reds have a bottom 5 NL pitching staff. Maybe they aren't finished getting pitching ?? If so, I hope it doesn't cost any/many key pieces of this "rebuild" we have 400-plus losses invested in. Unless you already have a contender, 1-2 year "answers" from 30-something mid to back of the rotation pitchers kill you 2 ways- they don't get you into contention in those 1-2 years, and can't keep you in contention beyond that, while the young talent you traded for them just start contributing elsewhere...

Maybe the Reds "improved" offense and worsened defense can add 2 runs a game, and get a few more wins for bullpenners that took over 2 runs behind and increased the deficit by 2 runs. I think we might need 6-7 runs a game to play .500.

I have to laugh at the pro-Dodger media propaganda around the trade...they gave the Reds two starting outfielders, a catcher,$7 million, and paid off Homer Bailey's buyout so the Dodgers can release him... The Dodgers got a REDS prospect that hit less than .260 in low AA, and lowered payroll, and the media says it makes the Dodgers contenders in '19...I hate to spoil it for them, but they were already contenders, and are every year they can spend twice the average payroll.

IMO, the Reds didn't lose anything except salary next year, in the deal... and still have everything except that payroll. they had before the trade, to add pitching with. If a couple top notch pitchers were available and it didn't cost more than 1 of JohnU's list above, I might go for it.