Pete Rose Hall of Famer ....Period

[Band of Brothers]

Every year I write about Pete Rose and since the Giants are in Cincinnati it's that time again. Dude is a Hall of Fame player period. I know he broke the cardinal rule of baseball gambling on games as a manager and it hurt the game and Rose. With all the cheating going on with PED use and other drugs, players have been given so many chances to come back.

It's time to forgive Rose who played 100% always. He has a gambling disease and if you study the disease you will find out how it can take over your life worse than cocaine or even heroine. Many gamblers get so bad they commit suicide. It's sad , man. At first I was pissed at Rose but after being around gambling and seeing the disease up close and how it can destroy lives I have forgiven him.

He finally came clean but many feel he is not sorry. The dude is in a form of denial which is kind of normal for the gambling problem he has. I feel deep down he is sorry and really would love to be in the HOF. He is still loved and his style of play inspired millions of young fans. I still think the slip and slide was made because of Pete Rose. We spent days upon days in the summer perfecting his head first slide. All I know is the he played his ass off and always played to win.

With a new commish coming in I hope he looks at the Rose situation and lets him back on the ballot and eligible to be elected. His plaque should include his screw up as a manager and he should not be allowed to manage anymore but as a hitting instructor he has so much knowledge to give it's ridiculous. Rose has a problem but his achievements on the field as a player cannot be ignored anymore. You cannot deny a man's greatness. Someone got all those hits that were legit.

He has done his time. It's time to forgive but not forget . Somewhere there is middle ground where he can be welcomed back. I can't wait to see his HOF speech. I hope he gets the chance .

 

[Mays-Fan]

It will NEVER be time to forgive Pete Rose for what he did. He was a great player to be sure, and if he didn't damage baseball's reputation by gambling on the game, he would be a first-ballot HOF'er.

But he must be held as an example for what not to do. If he is forgiven, future zero integrity types like Rose can point to his example and say forgive me, too. If you start sliding down that slippery slope, the game will deteriorate very quickly beyond redemption.

And let's not forget the way he lied and lied and lied about it.

Never.

 

[cezero]

He got all of his records while physically clean on the field of play.

All of those Hall of Fame records and milestones are in the books, and asterisk-free, unlike the likes of Bonds, MsGwire, etc.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Pete Rose =

 

[Mays-Fan]

He got all of his records while physically clean on the field of play.

All of those Hall of Fame records and milestones are in the books, and asterisk-free, unlike the likes of Bonds, MsGwire, etc.

Agreed. But then he threw it all away by doing the worst possible thing to the integrity of all of baseball.

Never.

 

[iowajerms]

What is worse Mays-Fan?

Jumping into the stands and beating the crap out of a handicap man nearly to death because he called you a name while up to bat

or

Betting on games that your team is not associated with and against opponents? (Rose never admitted to betting against his own team and it was never proven).

 

[RoboticDreams]

He's a Hall of Famer. To discredit his clean play and reward cheaters is asinine.

 

[Band of Brothers]

The sad thing is until people get educated on gambling addiction or even care enough to study it Rose most likely will not be forgiven or get into the HOF. Too much hate in the world instead of education.

 

[MarcoPolo]

He agreed to a lifetime ban. My viewpoint is that once he's dead, he should go into the hall of fame.

 

[calsnowskier]

He agreed to a lifetime ban. My viewpoint is that once he's dead, he should go into the hall of fame.

This is my feelings.

Once he dies, he will have paid the price for his crimes against the game, and he should then be in.

 

[msgkings322]

This is my feelings.

Once he dies, he will have paid the price for his crimes against the game, and he should then be in.

Also agree...and the punishment is severe enough to deter future potential Roses. But eventually the reord will show how great he was. And who knows, if he figures it out he might take some pleasure in it while he's alive.

 

[Band of Brothers]

Some people are just fucked up talking about how he should go into the HOF when Rose is dead. He is either good enough to go in now or he isn't . He has paid his dues long enough in baseball jail. Give the man his due before he dies.

 

[calsnowskier]

What is worse Mays-Fan?

Jumping into the stands and beating the crap out of a handicap man nearly to death because he called you a name while up to bat

or

Betting on games that your team is not associated with and against opponents? (Rose never admitted to betting against his own team and it was never proven).

Cobb was a piece of shit. Few argue against that opinion. What he did that you reference is despicable. But the hall is not (should not) be based on the personality of those enshrined (save for the Broadcasters wing, to an extent).

But what Rose did is THE ultimate sin against any sport. To bet on a game that you are competing in attacks the very integrity of the game, and cannot ever be too harshly dealt with. Remember that Bucky Weaver and Joe Jackson never played another game and are still not in the Hall. And they have been dead for years.

For argument sake (and, for the record, I tend to believe this), let's say he never bet against the Reds. However, do you really think he wouldnt have Dibble throw at 75% in a game that he had money on while he would let him sit if he did not have money on the game? How about saving Franco at 85% in a game he did not bet because he had money on tomorrow's game, and would rather have Franco avail at 90% in that game? Maybe he had a quicker hook on Jackson in the game he had money on while he let him work through it when he didnt have money on the game?

Further, what happened when he loses a big bet and can't cover the loss? Now he is in debt to a bookie. That is a HORRIBLE path to go down.

In my eyes, he stays out until the day he dies. Then he goes up for a vote, and we change the argument.


Edit:

I actually did more research on the fan-fight incident, and it is not quite so clear cut as being anti-Cobb. The fan had been heckling Cobb quite fiercely the whole game, and Cobb had already complained to the Highlander manager to do something about it or something would happen. The Highlanders did nothing and the altercation occurred.

This all happened in a different time. Baseball players were not the multimillionaires that they are today. They were just a bunch of schmoes who went to work. This situation is akin to some DB screaming at you for half your day while you are doing work in your cube. You would not be expected to withstand it.

Due to this incident, Cobb claimed that the way his team stood behind him essentially started the MLBPA. The whole team, BTW, refused to take the field the next day and the Tigers had to field a scab team and lost 24-2.

 

[calsnowskier]

Some people are just fucked up talking about how he should go into the HOF when Rose is dead. He is either good enough to go in now or he isn't . He has paid his dues long enough in baseball jail. Give the man his due before he dies.

No he hasnt. He was given a lifetime bad. Once THAT is over, he will have arguably paid his dues for his crime. Not before that.

 

[Band of Brothers]

I am tired of this sainthood bullshit . Wake up ...there are players who cheated the game already in the HOF. Pitchers been cheating since the beginning of time. Hitters juice and cork bats. Rose made a mistake because he was a sick man with a problem. Get off your high horses and recognize the good things he has done not just a mistake he made when he was sick. Do your homework on gambling addictive behavior and get back to me. The man needs help and does not deserve to be put in baseball town square and be stoned.

Done with this thread. Later.

 

[Mays-Fan]

What is worse Mays-Fan?

Jumping into the stands and beating the crap out of a handicap man nearly to death because he called you a name while up to bat

or

Betting on games that your team is not associated with and against opponents? (Rose never admitted to betting against his own team and it was never proven).

What Cobb did is 100% irrelevant to what Rose did. Standards should ALWAYS be absolute and NOT relative.

Judge Cobb on what Cobb did, and judge Rose on what Rose did. If they made a mistake with what Cobb did (and I'm not saying they did or they didn't), it has NO impact and NO weight on what Rose did. None. Completely irrelevant.

 

[iowajerms]

What Cobb did is 100% irrelevant to what Rose did. Standards should ALWAYS be absolute and NOT relative.

Judge Cobb on what Cobb did, and judge Rose on what Rose did. If they made a mistake with what Cobb did (and I'm not saying they did or they didn't), it has NO impact and NO weight on what Rose did. None. Completely irrelevant.

Both had something that is very rare during my lifetime, if it has been there at all. Both had careers before my time as well. I still know what passion they had to play. There is no doubt that both have playing careers that statistically qualify them for the HoF.

Ty Cobb was blessed to be on a team that sucked without him and the league still figuring things out. I think if the team was still very strong without him, then he would have served the full sentence of the attack. But the team sucked and was able to convince MLB (whoever is responsible for the suspension) to let him able to play.

IMO, what Pete Rose did was not the same as Shoeless Joe Jackson. Jackson, along with teammates, took money to help his team lose. To me, that is the ultimate sin in baseball. Even though there is no evidence for him to help actually blow the game, he still accepted the money.

IMO, betting on other games is the same as betting on other sports (which is something I don't believe is uncommon among pro athletes). He also bet on his team to win. That must make it such a HUGE disadvantage to the opponent that he has money on them to lose. Right?

 

[StanMarsh51]

IMO, betting on other games is the same as betting on other sports (which is something I don't believe is uncommon among pro athletes). He also bet on his team to win. That must make it such a HUGE disadvantage to the opponent that he has money on them to lose. Right?

Then again, he didn't bet every day, so what if on the days he bet on his team to win, he planned to overuse his best pitchers which could be detrimental to the team tomorrow or at some other future point? Is that something a reasonable manager would do?

Not to mention, Dowd afterwards claimed that they had numerous leads that Rose bet against his team and was working on verifying it, but Rose agreed to the ban to end the investigation (so Dowd's team had to cut the investigation short). So we can't say definitively that 'Rose never bet against his team,' and if Rose had nothing else to hide, why'd he want it ended? His reputation was already damaged, no?

 

[Mays-Fan]

Both had something that is very rare during my lifetime, if it has been there at all. Both had careers before my time as well. I still know what passion they had to play. There is no doubt that both have playing careers that statistically qualify them for the HoF.

Ty Cobb was blessed to be on a team that sucked without him and the league still figuring things out. I think if the team was still very strong without him, then he would have served the full sentence of the attack. But the team sucked and was able to convince MLB (whoever is responsible for the suspension) to let him able to play.

IMO, what Pete Rose did was not the same as Shoeless Joe Jackson. Jackson, along with teammates, took money to help his team lose. To me, that is the ultimate sin in baseball. Even though there is no evidence for him to help actually blow the game, he still accepted the money.

IMO, betting on other games is the same as betting on other sports (which is something I don't believe is uncommon among pro athletes). He also bet on his team to win. That must make it such a HUGE disadvantage to the opponent that he has money on them to lose. Right?

Pete Rose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Betting For or Against

The Dowd Report says, "no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Reds," but investigator Dowd stated in a December 2002 interview that he believed Rose probably bet against the Reds while managing them.[22] Those critical of Rose's behavior, including Ohio's own Hall of Fame baseball reporter Hal McCoy, have observed that "the major problem with Rose betting on baseball, particularly the Reds, is that as manager he could control games, make decisions that could enhance his chances of winning his bets, thus jeopardizing the integrity of the game."[23] The Major League baseball rule Rose violated prohibits any bet on a game the bettor is involved in, making no distinction between betting for or against one's team. The rule is: "Rule 21 MISCONDUCT, (d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES, Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."[24]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I grew up with Pete Rose (not personally, mind you). I had his rookie baseball card. My first girlfriend was a huge fan of his. While I have been a Giants fan all my life, I have always admired the guy. Always hit the ball hard, always made the right decisions, always played 100%, always played better when it counted most. The play, to me, that typified his career was when he caught that foul pop that his catcher dropped in the World Series with the Phils. I have never seen anyone else do that. He did it because, as he always was, he was in the right place at the right time. So I certainly have no vendetta against Rose - nothing but admiration for him as a player on the field.

However, even if he only bet FOR his team, that still would cause him to make decisions that are not in the best interests of the game. Suppose he is losing a game, and the right decision is to throw in the towel and bring in the subs, use your bullpen. But perhaps, in his stubbornness, he keeps his starting pitcher in too long, doesn't take out the catcher with a nagging injury to rest him, etc. He is exposing his players to injury, and not developing his younger players. Or suppose he is winning a game late. Same things. He might leave a veteran starter in too long to preserve the victory instead of handing it over to subs he might not trust because he has big money on the game. Very bad for the integrity of baseball.

 

[iowajerms]

However, even if he only bet FOR his team, that still would cause him to make decisions that are not in the best interests of the game. Suppose he is losing a game, and the right decision is to throw in the towel and bring in the subs, use your bullpen. But perhaps, in his stubbornness, he keeps his starting pitcher in too long, doesn't take out the catcher with a nagging injury to rest him, etc. He is exposing his players to injury, and not developing his younger players. Or suppose he is winning a game late. Same things. He might leave a veteran starter in too long to preserve the victory instead of handing it over to subs he might not trust because he has big money on the game. Very bad for the integrity of baseball.

I never said Pete Rose never bet against his own team without mentioning he never admitted to it and it was never proven. I'm sure Dowd was very qualified and should be considered valid, but what you have in bold is not evidence, it is his opinion. I think he may have, but the fact there is no evidence of it, we can't use it against him.

Betting against opponent and other games do have evidence. His admitting to doing so is enough evidence IMO. Should he have been punished for it - but I feel a lifetime ban was too extreme. Costing his own team a game due to making money does. Even though Shoeless has no evidence of help throw the game, there was evidence of him taking the money.

I also think Barry Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame based on what he was like as a young player. Mark McGwire has a good argument as well.