Pac 12 basketball

[CatsTopPac]

Unimpressed @ either Zona schools last nite, they stunk up their home gyms and gawd knows what will happen to em on the Pac road.

Tank gawd for "home cookin" refs last night. Amirite?

See you on Sunday.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

There is something to be said for the theory that if you play a soft enough schedule, play the majority of your tough games at home, and generally coast through the regular season, you'll get a high enough seed that you'll play close to home and won't ever face a hostile environment in the tournament.

 

[dcZONAfan]

Unimpressed @ either Zona schools last nite, they stunk up their home gyms and gawd knows what will happen to em on the Pac road.

Tank gawd for "home cookin" refs last night. Amirite?

I can't speak for your game, but there certainly wasn't anything in our game that came close to representing "home cooking" refs, I promise you that.

Of course we all agree, there was nothing impressive about our cats last night. We played like shit for 35 minutes. BUT, we won, and right now that's all we care about.

 

[Runeman]

Rune, just to follow up:

I think that SU is the better team right now. I think that much is clear. But I will also say that AZ's resumé, even with the loss, is much better than SU. SU is playing good basketball, but they have been largely un challenged. Now, before the rebuttal of playing Duke, Nova and Pitt; just know that there is only a month left in the season, and SU is still yet to play a top 50 opponent on the road. That stat alone leaves much to be desired from SU, and their ability to handle true adversity.

I hope I can have a better conversation with you about this than John, because he's terrible for seeing anything outside of his little box. I am not saying that SU can't win on the road to a top 50 RPI team, I'm just saying that they haven't. And furthermore, the fact that they haven't played one yet, would be very worrisome to me if I was a fan of SU, because they have 4 such games in this last month. And even their neutral court victories against top 50 opponents are pretty week, because they have not happened in reflective environments of the tourney. All of those games came in Maui, against 2,500 people, and most were SU fans. You look at top teams who have played neutral court games in games that directly resemble deep tourney atmospheres, and games in tough tough road environments, against top 25 opponents, and those are the teams whose wins show that they can maintain composure late in March.

Again, SU is the better team with Ashley gone, no doubt. But AZ still has a month to mend the hole left by Ashley, and they have already proven that the can handle absolutely any opponent, in any arena.

To this point, Syracuse has had a good home schedule catching NC, Pitt, and Duke at home so your point regarding the road RPI is correct. Pitt and Duke both could have won, however the size and depth of Syracuse is telling and they seem to have the upper hand during the last 5 minutes of tough games. Syracuse does have good wins over Cal and Baylor on a neutral court; so that speaks to their away game. All that is about to change as Syracuse will be playing Pitt, Duke, and Virginia away and it's hard for me to see Syracuse winning all three games. If they win 2 of 3 and Arizona wins out, IMO, Zona will not jump Syracuse.

Losing Brandon Ashley is a huge blow and from what I can see, Arizona has lost a lot of inside presence and depth. Tarczewski is a big guy and losing support from Ashley is going to reduce the rebounds; especially on the Offensive side of the court where Ashley's quickness gave Arizona an advantage over every other team they played. Now that is gone and I don't know what Sean Miller is going to do to help out under the basket. As I see it, an already limited bench just got even more limited and you might see 4 guards in there when Hollis-Jefferson and Gorden needs a break. The other night against Oregon, a team that has not done much, the Cats were 40% from the field and a dismal 54% from the line. A team usually loses with those numbers. At any rate, even though Johnson had no touch shooting, he and McConnell did an excellent job outside and TGarczewski was great inside. the biggest surprise was the excellent play of the freshman Jefferson. Could have/maybe should have lost that one, but gut check time that young team played hard. At this point, I would have to agree that Arizona should not beat Syracuse, home or away. I think the 5 you put out there does well, and keeps the game close. Syracuse is just too big inside. Boeheim routinely plays Fair, Roberson, Christmas, Gbinije, Grant and Keita; all big guys which allows them to run the court with big players along with a 1st round draft pick point guard in Tyler Ennis and a good 3 point shooting guard in Treaver Cooney. At this point, I see Syracuse, Duke and Kansas as the three teams I would not want my Gators playing until the final game....if we are fortunate to get there. Also like a healthy Michigan State. With Ashley, Arizona is as good as anybody, however still have that lack of bench. Without Ashley, IMO, Arizona goes from a top 3 team to a top 10 team and it's going to take a revamped team with a different way of playing to beat any of those teams. As mentioned before; Sean Miller is a fan of defense and superior ball handling and control. I really don't know what his plan is, but it will be fun to watch. I haven't looked at your remaining schedule and whatever that is, Arizona has to figure out a way to win them all or maybe just one loss in order to get a 1 or 2 seed in the NCAA. I apologize for the sometimes incoherent rambling, however, for me the discussion should be about the quality of the play of teams and their potential to win it all and right now, IMO Syracuse is deservedly at the top.

 

[john01992]

yeah I think runeman is correct here. a 1 loss SU team (w/ a loss coming @ one of the 3 ranked acc teams) will not get jumped by zona.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I agree with a lot of your points:

Syracuse is deservingly at the top spot.
At this point, I also agree that AZ would not beat Cuse home or away.
I also agree that Duke, Cuse, and Kansas are the three teams that UF would not want to see until the final game (and a healthy MSU).
I agree that AZ is probably only a top ten team right now.

But I also differ on some points.

Losing Ashley is a big blow for us. He is 6'8" with a 7'4" wingspan. So I want to acknowledge that. But I also think that AZ can be fine without him. Will they be fine though, remains to be seen. Ashley was our 3rd leading rebounder at 5.8 rpg. He was also our 3rd leading scorer at 11.5 ppg. But a couple things to consider. His defense is just above mediocre, but not good. Hollis-Jefferson starting adds some strengths and yet there are still weaknesses. RHJ rebounds at 5.6 per game. Along with Gordon, who is the leading rebounder, at 6'9" with a 42" vertical and about a 7'0" wingspan; putting him closer to the basket should do well to cover up the loss in size. Because with Ashley, AZ was one of the longest teams in CBB. Bringing RHJ in at 6'8" with a 7'1" wingspan along with Gordon, and the 7'0" Zeus at C (with a 7'0" wingspan) still gives us plenty of length to rebound. The biggest change is that RHJ is a great, great defender. He will need to keep scoring, and Gordon will need to pick it up some from the field, but that is certainly possible.

Again, without diminishing his abilities, the biggest gaps left by Ashley being out are in depth, and chemistry. It will take some time to replace the integrity and trust that the players feel in the team, and each other, respectively. But they have a month, so there is certainly an opportunity there. Will it happen? We'll see. As far as the depth, that will be a bigger problem; one that worries us AZ fans the most. Whenever any of those three bigs are getting rest, we will have to go to a smaller lineup. And that is where the rebounding and length problems--of which you speak--will be a factor. We have a 6'10" PF (Korchek) who could certainly help, but Miller doesn't trust him, and I honestly don't think he will be able to contribute this season. He might go in as an absolute necessity, but that is it. When those bigs are resting, 2 out of the three will play the PF and C, and we will go to a 3 guard lineup. But the 3rd guard will probably be mostly Nick Johnson who might only be 6'3", but he has a 46" vertical. The other option, like if NJ moves to PG to give TJ McConnell rest, is Elliott Pitts (6'5"). Pitts is the one who is going to need to step up and fill the void in depth, and he has a decent shot of doing so. He's a lengthy SG, and I think over the next month, he will get a lot better.

Mostly, it will be the team chemistry that needs to be propped back up. I know it doesn't sound like much, but these guys have had amazing chemistry all season. Everyone knew where everyone was at, and what they were going to do on every play; everyone 1-7. Now that a starter is out, the biggest difference to me has been that they don't know where everyone is on rebounding and defensive assignments. That (to me) is going to be the biggest area that needs to be ironed out.

But if AZ only loses one or even two more games, especially if Cuse drops a few (keep in mind, they also have to play a tough road game @ FSU, who is 9-1 at home), then I could definitely see AZ taking the top spot. I just think that Cuse is going to have a rude awakening when they those four tough road games in the last 3 1/2 weeks of the season. That's not the best time to be playing tough teams in true road games for the first time in the season. Then they have to go right into the ACC tourney in Charlotte. And unless they lose in the title game, it will be another loss that shows they don't know how to win big games outside of the Dome. Because when it comes down to it, beating RPI #s 43 and 51 (Minn and Cal) in Maui in front of a split crowd of 2,500 are not good barometers of how they would play against tourney teams in tourney venues.

I completely agree that Cuse is a great team, I'd say they are the team to beat. But I also know that they have not been tested in games that look like tourney games. And if they lose two out of those last four road games, and don't win the ACC tourney, then I have a very hard time believing that they will win deep in March. Because they will not have passed the test to me. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying that they haven't, yet. And that is my argument against John0 with him saying that Cuse is this world-beater. That is hands down the greatest team in the land, has been the whole season, and will be for the remainder of it. All of their tough games have been at home. It's not until you get to teams in the RPI mid-40s-50 that they have even played away from home, and that was at a high school size gym in Maui, with mostly Cuse fans at that. That doesn't show me anything.

And one last point about AZ: holding teams to almost nothing in the last 10 minutes of the game is not any sort of an outlier. It's basically their MO. They get extremely tough on defense in the last minutes of games when it's close. They have done it against Duke, Michigan, Stanford, Cal, Utah, and Oregon. And that isn't Brandon Ashley. The fact is that AZ's defense will take them further than their offense will allow. If they are within 5 with 8 minutes left, it will take zero offense and a last second shot by a good home team to beat them. So if they can figure out how to get Ashley to make more shots at the line, and get just a couple more tip ins, they should be fine. Nick Johnson goes through a February funk every year. I don't know why, but t is like clockwork. He'll be fine too.

I don't think that we are the team to beat anymore, but I also don't think that we will be as far as everyone thinks, come March. I definitely wouldn't write us off. The one thing I can say about Miller (which you point out, and I agree), is that he can coach. He has never lost to a lower seeded team in the tourney. So he'll have them ready to play. And when it comes down to it, all we are going for right now is the #1 seed in the West. And we really only have SDSU to compete for on that. SDSU still has to play @ WY, @UNM, and @UNLV. Those are tough games, and that's not counting the MWC tourney. I definitely don't think that we go undefeated for the rest of the season. To be honest, I think we have two losses left (I think we drop two on trip to Utah and CU, and @Oregon). But if AZ ends up 29-3, especially with Cuse having the same record with a much worse SOS, and if SDSU has the same record with a much worse SOS), then I think we are still right in the thick of things for a #1 seed. Other than Wich St, I see all of the #1 seeds with about 3 losses. Even without Ashley, AZ has a top ten SOS, and that will definitely help come Selection Sunday.

 

[dcZONAfan]

yeah I think runeman is correct here. a 1 loss SU team (w/ a loss coming @ one of the 3 ranked acc teams) will not get jumped by zona.

If Arizona wins out (which we will not do) and 'Cuse loses, we will most certainly end the season #1. That's because every metric will give us the advantage and the first time 'Cuse loses they will drop in the rankings, no matter who/where that loss occurs. To think anything different makes no sense. Of course, it is highly likely we will have lost a second game by the time Cuse loses it's first, but if we don't then the voters will have to respect our ability to continue winning games in conference even after such a big loss.

Seeding in the tourney, however, will almost certainly give the other top teams an advantage if we finish with the same or similar record.

 

[CatsTopPac]

yeah I think runeman is correct here. a 1 loss SU team (w/ a loss coming @ one of the 3 ranked acc teams) will not get jumped by zona.

To me, this isn't even a hypothetical worth discussing. I just can't see that SU and AZ will both end up with one loss. If SU loses before AZ next though, they will not stay #1; that's a given.

 

[john01992]

To me, this isn't even a hypothetical worth discussing. I just can't see that SU and AZ will both end up with one loss. If SU loses before AZ next though, they will not stay #1; that's a given.

fine. even if they both end up with 2 or 3 losses......SU will be ahead every time. zona needs to have 2 fewer losses than SU to not be ranked ahead.

 

[john01992]

I agree with a lot of your points:

Syracuse is deservingly at the top spot.
At this point, I also agree that AZ would not beat Cuse home or away.
I also agree that Duke, Cuse, and Kansas are the three teams that UF would not want to see until the final game (and a healthy MSU).
I agree that AZ is probably only a top ten team right now.

But I also differ on some points.

Losing Ashley is a big blow for us. He is 6'8" with a 7'4" wingspan. So I want to acknowledge that. But I also think that AZ can be fine without him. Will they be fine though, remains to be seen. Ashley was our 3rd leading rebounder at 5.8 rpg. He was also our 3rd leading scorer at 11.5 ppg. But a couple things to consider. His defense is just above mediocre, but not good. Hollis-Jefferson starting adds some strengths and yet there are still weaknesses. RHJ rebounds at 5.6 per game. Along with Gordon, who is the leading rebounder, at 6'9" with a 42" vertical and about a 7'0" wingspan; putting him closer to the basket should do well to cover up the loss in size. Because with Ashley, AZ was one of the longest teams in CBB. Bringing RHJ in at 6'8" with a 7'1" wingspan along with Gordon, and the 7'0" Zeus at C (with a 7'0" wingspan) still gives us plenty of length to rebound. The biggest change is that RHJ is a great, great defender. He will need to keep scoring, and Gordon will need to pick it up some from the field, but that is certainly possible.

Again, without diminishing his abilities, the biggest gaps left by Ashley being out are in depth, and chemistry. It will take some time to replace the integrity and trust that the players feel in the team, and each other, respectively. But they have a month, so there is certainly an opportunity there. Will it happen? We'll see. As far as the depth, that will be a bigger problem; one that worries us AZ fans the most. Whenever any of those three bigs are getting rest, we will have to go to a smaller lineup. And that is where the rebounding and length problems--of which you speak--will be a factor. We have a 6'10" PF (Korchek) who could certainly help, but Miller doesn't trust him, and I honestly don't think he will be able to contribute this season. He might go in as an absolute necessity, but that is it. When those bigs are resting, 2 out of the three will play the PF and C, and we will go to a 3 guard lineup. But the 3rd guard will probably be mostly Nick Johnson who might only be 6'3", but he has a 46" vertical. The other option, like if NJ moves to PG to give TJ McConnell rest, is Elliott Pitts (6'5"). Pitts is the one who is going to need to step up and fill the void in depth, and he has a decent shot of doing so. He's a lengthy SG, and I think over the next month, he will get a lot better.

Mostly, it will be the team chemistry that needs to be propped back up. I know it doesn't sound like much, but these guys have had amazing chemistry all season. Everyone knew where everyone was at, and what they were going to do on every play; everyone 1-7. Now that a starter is out, the biggest difference to me has been that they don't know where everyone is on rebounding and defensive assignments. That (to me) is going to be the biggest area that needs to be ironed out.

But if AZ only loses one or even two more games, especially if Cuse drops a few (keep in mind, they also have to play a tough road game @ FSU, who is 9-1 at home), then I could definitely see AZ taking the top spot. I just think that Cuse is going to have a rude awakening when they those four tough road games in the last 3 1/2 weeks of the season. That's not the best time to be playing tough teams in true road games for the first time in the season. Then they have to go right into the ACC tourney in Charlotte. And unless they lose in the title game, it will be another loss that shows they don't know how to win big games outside of the Dome. Because when it comes down to it, beating RPI #s 43 and 51 (Minn and Cal) in Maui in front of a split crowd of 2,500 are not good barometers of how they would play against tourney teams in tourney venues.

I completely agree that Cuse is a great team, I'd say they are the team to beat. But I also know that they have not been tested in games that look like tourney games. And if they lose two out of those last four road games, and don't win the ACC tourney, then I have a very hard time believing that they will win deep in March. Because they will not have passed the test to me. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying that they haven't, yet. And that is my argument against John0 with him saying that Cuse is this world-beater. That is hands down the greatest team in the land, has been the whole season, and will be for the remainder of it. All of their tough games have been at home. It's not until you get to teams in the RPI mid-40s-50 that they have even played away from home, and that was at a high school size gym in Maui, with mostly Cuse fans at that. That doesn't show me anything.

And one last point about AZ: holding teams to almost nothing in the last 10 minutes of the game is not any sort of an outlier. It's basically their MO. They get extremely tough on defense in the last minutes of games when it's close. They have done it against Duke, Michigan, Stanford, Cal, Utah, and Oregon. And that isn't Brandon Ashley. The fact is that AZ's defense will take them further than their offense will allow. If they are within 5 with 8 minutes left, it will take zero offense and a last second shot by a good home team to beat them. So if they can figure out how to get Ashley to make more shots at the line, and get just a couple more tip ins, they should be fine. Nick Johnson goes through a February funk every year. I don't know why, but t is like clockwork. He'll be fine too.

I don't think that we are the team to beat anymore, but I also don't think that we will be as far as everyone thinks, come March. I definitely wouldn't write us off. The one thing I can say about Miller (which you point out, and I agree), is that he can coach. He has never lost to a lower seeded team in the tourney. So he'll have them ready to play. And when it comes down to it, all we are going for right now is the #1 seed in the West. And we really only have SDSU to compete for on that. SDSU still has to play @ WY, @UNM, and @UNLV. Those are tough games, and that's not counting the MWC tourney. I definitely don't think that we go undefeated for the rest of the season. To be honest, I think we have two losses left (I think we drop two on trip to Utah and CU, and @Oregon). But if AZ ends up 29-3, especially with Cuse having the same record with a much worse SOS, and if SDSU has the same record with a much worse SOS), then I think we are still right in the thick of things for a #1 seed. Other than Wich St, I see all of the #1 seeds with about 3 losses. Even without Ashley, AZ has a top ten SOS, and that will definitely help come Selection Sunday.

you are correct with Ashley. can zona move on without him? yes he can.

But I have said before even if his replacement is better than ashley stat wise.....it is still a net loss for zona because ashleys size, experience, and depth that he adds to zona's roster is simply irreplaceable.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

fine. even if they both end up with 2 or 3 losses......SU will be ahead every time. zona needs to have 2 fewer losses than SU to not be ranked ahead.

Realistically, it's going to matter who the losses are to and when they occur more than the number of losses.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

The Scum Devils take down the Ducks.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

RIP Oregon

 

[FORKWDEVIL]

#‎blockchynski passed up Cookie Monster for all time PAC blocks! Take that UOFA

 

[FORKWDEVIL]

ASU #2 in overall wins. LMAO.... I picked us #8. I am loving out positions but the rest of the schedule is going to be brutal.

 

[CatsTopPac]

fine. even if they both end up with 2 or 3 losses......SU will be ahead every time. zona needs to have 2 fewer losses than SU to not be ranked ahead.

Two fewer losses???? GTFO. How in the fuck can you really believe this???

 

[FORKWDEVIL]

The Scum Devils take down the Ducks.

BTFD

 

[Arizona_Sting]

ASU fans spit on Oregon's HC Dana Altman.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/20140208oregon-coach-altman-security-problem.html?sf22601961=1

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

ASU fans spit on Oregon's HC Dana Altman.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/20140208oregon-coach-altman-security-problem.html?sf22601961=1

Wow, it's been a banner day for classy folks in CBB.

 

[jonvi]

I think both sides are handling this one well. Security had the student accused of spitting in custody. The coach of Oregon isn't pressing charges and letting ASU officials work it out is cool.


The players with Oregon who got spit on and didn't go all Marcus Smart deserve a thumps up.