Moncada the new Sox clean up hitter

[Lake Shore Drive]

Personally, I still like him in the #2 spot, but if this helps shake up the offensive doldrums, then let's see how it plays out.

Moncada cleans up: 'I think we found our No. 4 hitter'

 

[richig07]

From what I read, it's just an experiment to help get us out of the lull. Ricky said he could see Moncada hitting anywhere between 2nd and 5th. Jay is hitting surprisingly well, so this all made sense. Get Jay aboard for Abreu and Moncada. Moncada would have A LOT of RBI's if he hit in front of better OBP guys. Leury never walks and the bottom of the order has been atrocious.

I liked him the 2-hole as well and I think that's where he heads long-term. I actually see Eloy as our clean-up hitter. Robert could be another candidate to hit 2nd, but I'll slide him into 3rd until he earns that. Madrigal seems destined as our future lead-off hitter. Abreu will be 5th (at some point) if he returns, IMO. All four of those guys SHOULD wind-up being better than an Abreu on the back-side of his career. I like Anderson 7th. McCann can slot 6th.

All of this is barring a FA signing, obviously.

Hey... it worked tonight, though. lol

On a side note - it's weird how good Ryan Goins has been. Go figure.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

That's a good looking future lineup you posted. IF we resign Abreu and IF we can extend McCann for an additional couple of years, this could be our starting nine within the next 2-3 years:

Madrigal 2b
Moncada 3b
Robert CF
Jimenez LF
Abreu DH
Vaughn 1b
Anderson SS
McCann C
Garcia/Jay/whoever RF

Not a bad lineup. I can see, assuming Leury is still with us and doing his thang, that he'd swap places with Madrigal, who would also make an excellent #9 hitter.

 

[idseer]

That's a good looking future lineup you posted. IF we resign Abreu and IF we can extend McCann for an additional couple of years, this could be our starting nine within the next 2-3 years:

Madrigal 2b
Moncada 3b
Robert CF
Jimenez LF
Abreu DH
Vaughn 1b
Anderson SS
McCann C
Garcia/Jay/whoever RF

Not a bad lineup. I can see, assuming Leury is still with us and doing his thang, that he'd swap places with Madrigal, who would also make an excellent #9 hitter.

as long as our pitching isn't:


ross detwiler
reynaldo lopez
ivan nova
rick porcello
edwin jackson

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

as long as our pitching isn't:


ross detwiler
reynaldo lopez
ivan nova
rick porcello
edwin jackson

Nove just turned in a gem last night, but I agree he's at best a short term solution. I'm still on the fence with the also inconsistent Lopez, who had a horrendous first half, but as he promised, so far has been pretty effective since the AS break. I'm for letting him finish out the season and if it's a strong finish, keeping him in the mix. We need all the starting pitching we can muster, and I see at best maybe adding one top arm in the offseason. We'll need more than that if we are to be considered postseason contenders.

 

[Jiddy]

That's a good looking future lineup you posted. IF we resign Abreu and IF we can extend McCann for an additional couple of years, this could be our starting nine within the next 2-3 years:

Madrigal 2b
Moncada 3b
Robert CF
Jimenez LF
Abreu DH
Vaughn 1b
Anderson SS
McCann C
Garcia/Jay/whoever RF

Not a bad lineup. I can see, assuming Leury is still with us and doing his thang, that he'd swap places with Madrigal, who would also make an excellent #9 hitter.

I did something similar in the other thread stating about 6 or so players in the lineup that I liked and was like...Ok just a few fixes and we're good. Then you look at the reality and we're one of the worst scoring lineups in the majors. Third worst currently.

Fundamentally something is very very wrong with this team. They've sold us snake oil or something because we're summing up the parts in vain.

Obviously we're improved on last year, because how couldn't we be, right?

But are we? Are we that much better?

The reality is we're on pace to score 690 runs this year...which is an improvement upon last year...but that sh*t is all smoke and mirrors because it's happening across the majors. Last year there were 21,630 runs scored over 4860 games. 4.45 per.

This season? 14619 runs scored over 3018 games so far. 4.84 runs per game. A pace over 4860 games of 23,542 runs. Over 2000 runs more. That's a HUGE jump of offense thus far through the season.

Our "improvement?" Last year we scored 656 runs over 162. 4.05 per game. This year? 418 over 98. 4.27 per game. An (and I emphasize the quotes here) "improvement" of 0.22 runs per game. The average mlb improvement this year with the scoring up so much from above? 0.39 runs per game. We're BEHIND THE CURVE.

And it makes sense. We were 24th in the league in runs scored last year. This year we are 27th currently.

All this despite the fact Anderson lit it up more in his lesser playing time than he did all last season and we didn't have McCann...or Jimenez. Moncada was significantly worse last year.

Just what the hell is going on with this team it makes you ask.

Soup to nuts, and I'll bang this point home until it is realized for y'all and my own sanity. Every team in the majors can throw down a theoretical lineup based on their current players and be satisfied in a similar way you are here LSD. The truth is, most of them are already better than us. We're flawed. And what's worse? We're flawed in the worst way possible. In a way that everyone thinks we're good/on the rise...but the truth is...we're not. We are a boiling frog right now.

 

[idseer]

I did something similar in the other thread stating about 6 or so players in the lineup that I liked and was like...Ok just a few fixes and we're good. Then you look at the reality and we're one of the worst scoring lineups in the majors. Third worst currently.

Fundamentally something is very very wrong with this team. They've sold us snake oil or something because we're summing up the parts in vain.

Obviously we're improved on last year, because how couldn't we be, right?

But are we? Are we that much better?

The reality is we're on pace to score 690 runs this year...which is an improvement upon last year...but that sh*t is all smoke and mirrors because it's happening across the majors. Last year there were 21,630 runs scored over 4860 games. 4.45 per.

This season? 14619 runs scored over 3018 games so far. 4.84 runs per game. A pace over 4860 games of 23,542 runs. Over 2000 runs more. That's a HUGE jump of offense thus far through the season.

Our "improvement?" Last year we scored 656 runs over 162. 4.05 per game. This year? 418 over 98. 4.27 per game. An (and I emphasize the quotes here) "improvement" of 0.22 runs per game. The average mlb improvement this year with the scoring up so much from above? 0.39 runs per game. We're BEHIND THE CURVE.

And it makes sense. We were 24th in the league in runs scored last year. This year we are 27th currently.

All this despite the fact Anderson lit it up more in his lesser playing time than he did all last season and we didn't have McCann...or Jimenez. Moncada was significantly worse last year.

Just what the hell is going on with this team it makes you ask.

Soup to nuts, and I'll bang this point home until it is realized for y'all and my own sanity. Every team in the majors can throw down a theoretical lineup based on their current players and be satisfied in a similar way you are here LSD. The truth is, most of them are already better than us. We're flawed. And what's worse? We're flawed in the worst way possible. In a way that everyone thinks we're good/on the rise...but the truth is...we're not. We are a boiling frog right now.

it's hard to argue your points here. but going a little further, where DOES the blame lie? it does seem overall that the batting has improved significantly (with the exception of palka's production) and you can't blame the pitching for lack of production. so what does this leave? bad managing? just dumb luck? what do you think is going on?

 

[Jiddy]

it's hard to argue your points here. but going a little further, where DOES the blame lie? it does seem overall that the batting has improved significantly (with the exception of palka's production) and you can't blame the pitching for lack of production. so what does this leave? bad managing? just dumb luck? what do you think is going on?

I wish I knew man. I've been trying to figure it out myself. Like I said in my last post, when you look at individual players, there are easily 10 or so guys currently our squad that I can make an argument to myself where I am completely content. A group that I see as a "core." But if that is our core, then past performance equating to future outcome implies we are going to suck some serious dong.

I don't think it is the organization or even the team atmosphere, despite our now going on 6 losing seasons. Players do like to play for the White Sox from what I've seen. (There's always exceptions...Pudge-The real Pudge...F*ck off Ivan Rodriguez-and Chris Sale immediately come to mind) So it's not like a Detroit Lions deal where there's something horribly wrong with the organization's management. Our farm system should finally be back up to snuff after the Kenny Williams years, so that's a plus. Or, at least, that's what we're being sold regarding the farm. We'll have to live with the fact that we're a low-end payroll team most of the time, especially if the team shows no life. Reinsdorf is not gonna feed this pig until our onfield play shows some real promise and a there is a legitimate opportunity to grab a pennant.

Since we're so f*cking bad, it's hard to pin our troubles on coaching. I see coaches as the guys that get a team that extra 5-10%...but our problems stem way beyond that. Renteria may never get a chance to show if he's capable of taking a good team to the next step if we keep sucking, but it obviously isn't a nod in your favor if you've never seen a winning season as coach in the Majors. Incomplete assessment I guess?

It's really one of those things where I guess the team could explode out of nowhere, but how exactly that is going to happen is beyond me. We can't score. We can't pitch. Our coaching is whatever. Our management is whatever because we are going to be a low-end-of-the-totem payroll team. One injury to a key player will probably destroy most, if not all, seasons. Sh*t, if losing Carlos Rodon has, in effect, decimated our starting pitching rotation, that tells me something.

Really, this team would have a very small margin of error even if they improved two-fold. And I don't see how they're improving two-fold....regardless if my personal opinion of some of our more respectable players like Anderson/Moncada/Abreu/etc is positive.

 

[richig07]

I did something similar in the other thread stating about 6 or so players in the lineup that I liked and was like...Ok just a few fixes and we're good. Then you look at the reality and we're one of the worst scoring lineups in the majors. Third worst currently.

Fundamentally something is very very wrong with this team. They've sold us snake oil or something because we're summing up the parts in vain.

Obviously we're improved on last year, because how couldn't we be, right?

But are we? Are we that much better?

The reality is we're on pace to score 690 runs this year...which is an improvement upon last year...but that sh*t is all smoke and mirrors because it's happening across the majors. Last year there were 21,630 runs scored over 4860 games. 4.45 per.

This season? 14619 runs scored over 3018 games so far. 4.84 runs per game. A pace over 4860 games of 23,542 runs. Over 2000 runs more. That's a HUGE jump of offense thus far through the season.

Our "improvement?" Last year we scored 656 runs over 162. 4.05 per game. This year? 418 over 98. 4.27 per game. An (and I emphasize the quotes here) "improvement" of 0.22 runs per game. The average mlb improvement this year with the scoring up so much from above? 0.39 runs per game. We're BEHIND THE CURVE.

And it makes sense. We were 24th in the league in runs scored last year. This year we are 27th currently.

All this despite the fact Anderson lit it up more in his lesser playing time than he did all last season and we didn't have McCann...or Jimenez. Moncada was significantly worse last year.

Just what the hell is going on with this team it makes you ask.

Soup to nuts, and I'll bang this point home until it is realized for y'all and my own sanity. Every team in the majors can throw down a theoretical lineup based on their current players and be satisfied in a similar way you are here LSD. The truth is, most of them are already better than us. We're flawed. And what's worse? We're flawed in the worst way possible. In a way that everyone thinks we're good/on the rise...but the truth is...we're not. We are a boiling frog right now.

While this is a very well thought and researched criticism. It's also a flawed manner of evaluating the improvement of the ball club. Notably, the reasons for optimism.

The amount of development we've seen at the big league level among our key, young parts has been fantastic. It's gone roughly as good as it possibly could, minus the dreadful 1st half Lopez has (suddenly showing signs of life).

Just after the break, there was a graphic shown on MLB Network of the league leaders in top of the order batting average. 1-5 in the order, to be exact. We were 2nd in all of baseball. These are largely our younger players and our veteran players (Abreu and possibly Leury) who could/should be apart of our near future. Moncada, Abreu, Eloy, Leury, McCann, Anderson... This isn't even touching on the development of Giolito from a pitching standpoint either.

So, if you're wondering why all of these spots are improved with exciting youthful players, but the team numbers don't reflect it? That's because place holders, quadruple A players and utility guys make up the bottom of the order. Which has been utterly and completely dreadful. We were carried through the first half of the season to a near .500 record purely on the basis of the top of our lineup. While the bottom was a black hole, sucking the life pulse out of the team.

Personally, so far as the big picture... I don't give a shit what Yonder Alonso, Ryan Goins, Adam Engel, Yolmer Sanchez (some value as a utility guy), Ryan Cordell, Jose Rondon, Wellington Castillo, Charlie Tilson, Daniel Palka, etc. are doing offensively. None of these names will matter to us in a year or two. The guys who will are the aforementioned players in the above paragraph, Luis Robert, Madrigal, Vaughn, etc. and there's plenty of reasons to be excited about them.

The difference between this season and last season. Is that last season we were largely a clusterfuck of quadruple A players, washed out vets, non-prospect youth and youth not yet ready to perform. All just sort of 3slumbering along. This year we have our core, building block pieces playing extremely well. Carving out the beginnings of a future lineup. While the guys taking up space are... doing just that. Taking up space.

This season you can actually sit here and make threads about "what will our lineup look like in 20 and 21?" and give a somewhat realistic answer. With legitimate players, guys who can make an impact on a contender... already performing well filling half of those spots. Last year? How many players in our lineup did we have that a contender would desire? Abreu... maybe? Even in his worst season, maybe somebody would have taken a shot? Honestly, the only real answer is probably Omar Narvaez. lol. You cannot look back on that fact and POSSIBLY argue that we haven't given tangible reasons for optimism. You cannot look back on that team and POSSIBLY argue that there isn't clear cut improvement towards the big picture.

 

[idseer]

While this is a very well thought and researched criticism. It's also a flawed manner of evaluating the improvement of the ball club. Notably, the reasons for optimism.

The amount of development we've seen at the big league level among our key, young parts has been fantastic. It's gone roughly as good as it possibly could, minus the dreadful 1st half Lopez has (suddenly showing signs of life).

Just after the break, there was a graphic shown on MLB Network of the league leaders in top of the order batting average. 1-5 in the order, to be exact. We were 2nd in all of baseball. These are largely our younger players and our veteran players (Abreu and possibly Leury) who could/should be apart of our near future. Moncada, Abreu, Eloy, Leury, McCann, Anderson... This isn't even touching on the development of Giolito from a pitching standpoint either.

So, if you're wondering why all of these spots are improved with exciting youthful players, but the team numbers don't reflect it? That's because place holders, quadruple A players and utility guys make up the bottom of the order. Which has been utterly and completely dreadful. We were carried through the first half of the season to a near .500 record purely on the basis of the top of our lineup. While the bottom was a black hole, sucking the life pulse out of the team.

Personally, so far as the big picture... I don't give a shit what Yonder Alonso, Ryan Goins, Adam Engel, Yolmer Sanchez (some value as a utility guy), Ryan Cordell, Jose Rondon, Wellington Castillo, Charlie Tilson, Daniel Palka, etc. are doing offensively. None of these names will matter to us in a year or two. The guys who will are the aforementioned players in the above paragraph, Luis Robert, Madrigal, Vaughn, etc. and there's plenty of reasons to be excited about them.

The difference between this season and last season. Is that last season we were largely a clusterfuck of quadruple A players, washed out vets, non-prospect youth and youth not yet ready to perform. All just sort of 3slumbering along. This year we have our core, building block pieces playing extremely well. Carving out the beginnings of a future lineup. While the guys taking up space are... doing just that. Taking up space.

This season you can actually sit here and make threads about "what will our lineup look like in 20 and 21?" and give a somewhat realistic answer. With legitimate players, guys who can make an impact on a contender... already performing well filling half of those spots. Last year? How many players in our lineup did we have that a contender would desire? Abreu... maybe? Even in his worst season, maybe somebody would have taken a shot? Honestly, the only real answer is probably Omar Narvaez. lol. You cannot look back on that fact and POSSIBLY argue that we haven't given tangible reasons for optimism. You cannot look back on that team and POSSIBLY argue that there isn't clear cut improvement towards the big picture.

wow. that's a lot of hogwash there. fact is the bottom 4 positions in our line up is just about what should be expected ... not utterly and completely dreadful. in fact, 2 of the bottom four hitters in the line-up have the 3rd and 4th highest obp. so. once again ... you talk shit you feel but don't know. no black hole, sucking the life pulse out of the team.
now i'm not saying we won't be better next year because maybe we will. all i'm saying is you're full of shit, and your reply to jiddy's post is a lousy response. he made actual points while you made stuff up.

 

[Jiddy]

While this is a very well thought and researched criticism. It's also a flawed manner of evaluating the improvement of the ball club. Notably, the reasons for optimism.

The amount of development we've seen at the big league level among our key, young parts has been fantastic. It's gone roughly as good as it possibly could, minus the dreadful 1st half Lopez has (suddenly showing signs of life).

Just after the break, there was a graphic shown on MLB Network of the league leaders in top of the order batting average. 1-5 in the order, to be exact. We were 2nd in all of baseball. These are largely our younger players and our veteran players (Abreu and possibly Leury) who could/should be apart of our near future. Moncada, Abreu, Eloy, Leury, McCann, Anderson... This isn't even touching on the development of Giolito from a pitching standpoint either.

So, if you're wondering why all of these spots are improved with exciting youthful players, but the team numbers don't reflect it? That's because place holders, quadruple A players and utility guys make up the bottom of the order. Which has been utterly and completely dreadful. We were carried through the first half of the season to a near .500 record purely on the basis of the top of our lineup. While the bottom was a black hole, sucking the life pulse out of the team.

Personally, so far as the big picture... I don't give a shit what Yonder Alonso, Ryan Goins, Adam Engel, Yolmer Sanchez (some value as a utility guy), Ryan Cordell, Jose Rondon, Wellington Castillo, Charlie Tilson, Daniel Palka, etc. are doing offensively. None of these names will matter to us in a year or two. The guys who will are the aforementioned players in the above paragraph, Luis Robert, Madrigal, Vaughn, etc. and there's plenty of reasons to be excited about them.

The difference between this season and last season. Is that last season we were largely a clusterfuck of quadruple A players, washed out vets, non-prospect youth and youth not yet ready to perform. All just sort of 3slumbering along. This year we have our core, building block pieces playing extremely well. Carving out the beginnings of a future lineup. While the guys taking up space are... doing just that. Taking up space.

This season you can actually sit here and make threads about "what will our lineup look like in 20 and 21?" and give a somewhat realistic answer. With legitimate players, guys who can make an impact on a contender... already performing well filling half of those spots. Last year? How many players in our lineup did we have that a contender would desire? Abreu... maybe? Even in his worst season, maybe somebody would have taken a shot? Honestly, the only real answer is probably Omar Narvaez. lol. You cannot look back on that fact and POSSIBLY argue that we haven't given tangible reasons for optimism. You cannot look back on that team and POSSIBLY argue that there isn't clear cut improvement towards the big picture.

Richi, this is exactly what I have been talking about. This post screams tunnel vision, which is common for fans regarding their team, and not looking at the big picture.

I don't know how, for the life of me, that you can point to our second half so far as a reason of optimism. We've been even more horrible. 16 games with a run differential of -32. We're getting our asses handed to us. We're averaging 3.1 runs per game offensively...over a run and a half behind the MLB average and a full run behind our own-28th worst in the league-scoring average. We've been bad even by our own currently-set poor standards. That you pulled a positive out of that is impressive.

Right now, on pure standings alone, there are 9 teams ahead of us in the AL. By "expected win loss" 12 are ahead of us. What really needs to be looked at is how 8 of those 12 teams are going to fall behind us . I implore you to take a look at each and every one of them with the same brush you do with the White Sox. And my gut is strong that if you actually do, you'll become self-aware of your inner boiling frog. This sh*t doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's a competitive environment and there's more to it than "our guys are better this year than our guys last year on paper." When you are 6 years into sucking pretty bad, you are not good until you are.

But hey, baseball can be weird so I guess lightning in a bottle can happen. I'm not seeing it though. As always, time will tell so we'll all be here next year to hash it out.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

It's hard to argue with the guys in here who feel that we as fans may have been sold a bill of goods with respect to the Sox rebuild. Altho I wasn't hanging on this board back when the initial rebuild kinda got kicked off with the Sale trade, back then I had timelined this year as the season the Sox would start to bust a move - not necessarily make the playoffs, but definitely be in the thick of the fight all year along, then with 2020 being the year when we'd begin our annual playoff/possibly WS run. I'm now obviously off by at least a year and possibly two.

The sad thing is up till the AS break, our boys were somewhat playing like a team who was just barely outside the group who would be making a run at the postseason. Then all of a sudden, we started looking like a team playing for a top 3 draft slot again. It's obvious there's been a perfect storm of bad pitching coupled with terrible hitting that has served as the reason for the collapse, so the question is why. For that I don't have an answer. All I can do as a dedicated fan is to believe that things will get turned around. I still believe some of the talent remaining in the minors coupled with our young vets will emerge and make the Sox a force to be reckoned with at some point down the road. That may be flying in the face of logic, but shit, what's the point of being a fan if you can't hope for better days to come.

 

[idseer]

It's hard to argue with the guys in here who feel that we as fans may have been sold a bill of goods with respect to the Sox rebuild. Altho I wasn't hanging on this board back when the initial rebuild kinda got kicked off with the Sale trade, back then I had timelined this year as the season the Sox would start to bust a move - not necessarily make the playoffs, but definitely be in the thick of the fight all year along, then with 2020 being the year when we'd begin our annual playoff/possibly WS run. I'm now obviously off by at least a year and possibly two.

The sad thing is up till the AS break, our boys were somewhat playing like a team who was just barely outside the group who would be making a run at the postseason. Then all of a sudden, we started looking like a team playing for a top 3 draft slot again. It's obvious there's been a perfect storm of bad pitching coupled with terrible hitting that has served as the reason for the collapse, so the question is why. For that I don't have an answer. All I can do as a dedicated fan is to believe that things will get turned around. I still believe some of the talent remaining in the minors coupled with our young vets will emerge and make the Sox a force to be reckoned with at some point down the road. That may be flying in the face of logic, but shit, what's the point of being a fan if you can't hope for better days to come.

well ... were we all that good the first half? we had an under .500 record and the sox strength of schedule shows only one other team (cleveland) has played a weaker schedule! 2019 MLB Baseball Relative Power Index - Major League Baseball - ESPN
and we're now 10 below .500! there is NOTHING that shows we are getting better. just a few bats who have improved. counting on rookies to be our saviors seems like pure wishful thinking.
there IS a cure, however. sell the fucking team!

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

there IS a cure, however. sell the fucking team!

I wished for that long ago, more years than I care to remember. I also wished that even if he wasn't going to sell the team, that Reinsdorf would have at least chosen the burbs for the new stadium vs simply staying in the same neighborhood once it was announced the Sox would be departing the old Comiskey. Nothing against Bridgeport, Canaryville, or any of the surrounding areas, but it's been apparent now for a few decades that this is a Cubs town. We could win back-back WS titles, while the Cubs finish in dead last and they would still outdraw the Sox. A relocation outside of the city would have nailed down the suburban fanbase, especially the ever expanding west and southwest burbs. Two-three million in attendance would have been the norm, not the exception.