John (Mr Ed) Elway, what a......

[Southieinnc]

[QUOTE=Ricky Roma;6218395]As I stated, I believe Elway to be both a legit HOF QB and an overrated/overhyped player as well. There's no doubt as to his talent, his ability and achievements in the NFL, and every team would be lucky to have a guy like him. However, the problem I have with Elway is that a lot of his legend is media driven.

He was one of the first true superstars in the NFL of the ESPN era. Granted he was a can't-miss prospect. Second were the 'comeback' stats that originated out of some Bronco PR office.....a lot of those comebacks were because Elway put them down by his poor play, or the massive advantage Denver gets at Mile High. Funny thing is, for a long time he was regarded as the 'all time leader' in comebacks when in fact, Dan Marino held the record all along. Another aspect is that 'Elway took those Broncos to 3 Super Bowls alone' in the 1980's. By the mid 1980's, the AFC was a joke, so....somebody had to go. It's no surprise that Denver got pounded worse with each trip, and there is zero chance if Denver was in the NFC, they make any Super Bowl runs.

He had some faults - lack of touch for the longest time, forcing balls through triple coverage, par pre-snap reads, but I'd still take a guy like him in a second for my team.[/QUOTE]

Well said, thank you.

 

[Oldschool739]

And HOF'r Elway will be making off with half the Ravens coaching staff. Must be eating away at people there.

We won 2 SB's without Kubes and friends , so the sky isn't falling either way....
But if Kubes leaves for that recipe for failure after stating that he liked it here and wanted to continue being OC here, I will concede that he is not the high character guy I claimed him to be earlier....
He and Peyton don't fit, so if he did take the job, PM would more than likely walk....
Then that team is all the way back to rebuilding, 3 years or more from being competitive again....
And Dennison has separated from him before, but Kyle Shanny is cut from the same mold also, we'll be alright......I like Kubes and hope he stays, I think it would be best for both, but he stands to lose more by leaving than us...
"I would like to thank Oldschool for this insightful comment "

 

[Ricky Roma]

Like you said though other stadiums have a unique home field advantage for them as well so what is the big deal of the Broncos having Altitude?

No other team has THAT advantage. It was an EXTRA advantage, along with the confines of old Mile High, the loud crowd, the cold environment later in the year, etc.

 

[cdumler7]

No other team has THAT advantage. It was an EXTRA advantage, along with the confines of old Mile High, the loud crowd, the cold environment later in the year, etc.

I understand that! What you seem to be missing is the idea that other stadiums have their own unique things as well such as Green Bay especially come playoff time stands a very good chance at some ridiculously cold games. Seattle stands a good chance that it is raining through most of the season for games plus a great stadium to hold in noise. Chicago being the windiest city to play in.

 

[wingsauce7]

Home field is home field for good teams. Bookmakers don't give more than the standard 3.5 points because a team is playing in Denver.

Altitude doesn't effect the highly trained and conditioned athlete in sports today. It's BS.

 

[Ricky Roma]

I understand that! What you seem to be missing is the idea that other stadiums have their own unique things as well such as Green Bay especially come playoff time stands a very good chance at some ridiculously cold games. Seattle stands a good chance that it is raining through most of the season for games plus a great stadium to hold in noise. Chicago being the windiest city to play in.

Every team has dealt with wind and rain. Those are conditions that favour no team given the circumstances. The cold is an exception. No other team except for Denver plays at a mile high. It IS an EXTRA advantage, ON TOP of the stadium design of old mile high, the cold, the loud crowd, etc. etc. Period. End of story.

I'll let you have the last say on this, since you seem fixated on this fact, which does nothing to negate the main crux of the argument at hand.

 

[Southieinnc]

Home field is home field for good teams. Bookmakers don't give more than the standard 3.5 points because a team is playing in Denver.

Altitude doesn't effect the highly trained and conditioned athlete in sports today. It's BS.

Hate to say it , "oh saucy one", but it does affect athletes. Contrary to what some will say, it affects some people more on 2nd or 3rd day. Not everybody is bothered and the effects can be mitigated by taking oxygen on the sidelines.

What a lot of people don't realize, is that the affects when you come back to sea-level can be worse.....

 

[wingsauce7]

Hate to say it , "oh saucy one", but it does affect athletes. Contrary to what some will say, it affects some people more on 2nd or 3rd day. Not everybody is bothered and the effects can be mitigated by taking oxygen on the sidelines.

What a lot of people don't realize, is that the affects when you come back to sea-level can be worse.....

Hmmmm, Denver plays 8 road games per season....

 

[Ricky Roma]

Altitude doesn't effect the highly trained and conditioned athlete in sports today. It's BS.

The players training regiment, in general, is all equal. The altitude still plays a factor, and still gives an advantage.

Besides....the discussion isn't about today. It's about John Elway, who was playing 20-30+ years ago.

 

[SonnyCID]

I understand that! What you seem to be missing is the idea that other stadiums have their own unique things as well such as Green Bay especially come playoff time stands a very good chance at some ridiculously cold games. Seattle stands a good chance that it is raining through most of the season for games plus a great stadium to hold in noise. Chicago being the windiest city to play in.

The niners have no home field advantage.

 

[GNG]

The niners have no home field advantage.

They don't even play in San Francisco anymore.

 

[cdumler7]

The niners have no home field advantage.

Didn't say every team has a great home field advantage but there are quite a few in the league that have a very nice home field advantage. Heck record wise you could make the argument that Baltimore has the best home field advantage in all the NFL since they have the best home winning percentage of any stadium in the country.

 

[wingsauce7]

The players training regiment, in general, is all equal. The altitude still plays a factor, and still gives an advantage.

Besides....the discussion isn't about today. It's about John Elway, who was playing 20-30+ years ago.

It's BS. Denver's Elevation is 5200'. If the games were played in the mountains, I might buy the argument. It's BS and just an excuse.

 

[Southieinnc]

Hmmmm, Denver plays 8 road games per season....

Yeah, thought of that too. Some athletes of some sports do a regimen of going up and down on purpose. It could be that is more of an advantage than the altitude itself.
From Wikipedia:
Athletes can also take advantage of altitude acclimatization to increase their performance.[4] The same changes that help the body cope with high altitude increase performance back at sea level. However, this may not always be the case. Any positive acclimatization effects may be negated by a de-training effect as the athletes are usually not able to exercise with as much intensity at high altitudes compared to sea level.
This conundrum led to the development of the altitude training modality known as "Live-High, Train-Low", whereby the athlete spends many hours a day resting and sleeping at one (high) altitude, but performs a significant portion of their training, possibly all of it, at another (lower) altitude. A series of studies conducted in Utah in the late 1990s by researchers Ben Levine, Jim Stray-Gundersen, and others, showed significant performance gains in athletes who followed such a protocol for several weeks.[28][29] Other studies have shown performance gains from merely performing some exercising sessions at high altitude, yet living at sea level.[30]a:

 

[Ricky Roma]

It's BS. Denver's Elevation is 5200'. If the games were played in the mountains, I might buy the argument. It's BS and just an excuse.

It's not a matter of if you buy it. It's an absolute, 100% fact. The higher in elevation, the less the barometric pressure, which means less oxygen for respiration. It most certainly leads to a greater difficulty in breathing which reduces athletic ability. +5200 feet in elevation change will do this.

It. Is. Not. Debatable.

 

[sonnyblack65]

Great teams win Super Bowls but great QB's have great stats according to many.

You need both. Marino was the first QB to break the 5000 yard mark, back when there wasnt all the PI and holding calls and that record stood for years. Only 5 or 6 QB's have had over 5000 Yards and only 2 have had 50 or more TD's. And obviously when teams go deeper into playoffs, they are player tougher teams and their QBR or rating will go down, but have to look at if they helped win a game or blew the game, with costly turnovers

 

[Oldschool739]

I don't buy into the bad weather favoring any team, because there are players that come from warm and cold weather climates alike, and everyone has to deal with it on the field that day....
Granted some individual players perform better under extreme conditions than others, and that can be a definite advantage at their particular position...
A qb unrattled by the weather is a huge benefit in those games as well as RB's, but if a qb plays well but the receivers don't, then it's a moot point....
Crowd noise and fans rooting you on is considered a 3 point favor as a rule by odds makers , but I think Denver has a physical advantage with the thin air in that city and they are the only team to have such an advantage....I remember a Pittsburgh player almost died because of it and was told by doctors and coaches that he could not play there anymore and he would not make the trip with his team when they went there to play thereafter....
But, it's not gonna change so no need to squabble about it....
Even with that advantage, and their HOF Mr Ed, they have 2 SB wins in the history of the franchise, 55 yrs....Wow, I don't think I'd be bragging too much on that embarrassing record....

 

[wingsauce7]

It's not a matter of if you buy it. It's an absolute, 100% fact. The higher in elevation, the less the barometric pressure, which means less oxygen for respiration. It most certainly leads to a greater difficulty in breathing which reduces athletic ability. +5200 feet in elevation change will do this.

It. Is. Not. Debatable.

Yes, I know how it works. I don't buy that the Denver's slight elevation change is an advantage for the home team. You don't hear HS teams from the front range crying about going to play a school in the mountains.

 

[GNG]

You need both. Marino was the first QB to break the 5000 yard mark, back when there wasnt all the PI and holding calls and that record stood for years. Only 5 or 6 QB's have had over 5000 Yards and only 2 have had 50 or more TD's. And obviously when teams go deeper into playoffs, they are player tougher teams and their QBR or rating will go down, but have to look at if they helped win a game or blew the game, with costly turnovers

Winning the Super Bowl has more to do with teamwork than with great QB's unless you consider Eli Manning and Trent Dilfer great QB's

 

[sonnyblack65]

I don't buy into the bad weather favoring any team, because there are players that come from warm and cold weather climates alike, and everyone has to deal with it on the field that day....
Granted some individual players perform better under extreme conditions than others, and that can be a definite advantage at their particular position...
A qb unrattled by the weather is a huge benefit in those games as well as RB's, but if a qb plays well but the receivers don't, then it's a moot point....
Crowd noise and fans rooting you on is considered a 3 point favor as a rule by odds makers , but I think Denver has a physical advantage with the thin air in that city and they are the only team to have such an advantage....I remember a Pittsburgh player almost died because of it and was told by doctors and coaches that he could not play there anymore and he would not make the trip with his team when they went there to play thereafter....
But, it's not gonna change so no need to squabble about it....
Even with that advantage, and their HOF Mr Ed, they have 2 SB wins in the history of the franchise, 55 yrs....Wow, I don't think I'd be bragging too much on that embarrassing record....

Your right and Brady thrives in those games like nobody else, I think he is like 48-6 in games under 32 degrees. Altitude can be a little tough for unconditioned athletes, just like the heat. Pats played real good in first half of game vs Miami but fell apart in 2nd half as I think the guys weren't used to playing in 85-80 degree weather. Last 10 years NE has the best HFA and Balt is second, is it the stadiums, QB's or teams?