Is Aaron Judge the best (righty) hitter we've ever seen?

[dtgold88]

Because he never really had an MVP regular seasons. Jeter was a very good regular season player, I'm not convinced if he played for the Pirates and barely sniffed the playoffs that he is a HOFer.

His hype is so high because of what he did in the 8th inning down a run in October. And rightfully so.

Mostly agree about the Pirates premise (certainly not as well known with the Jeter mystique) but think he'd have been a HOFer.

As to the last comment is it even true? Sure, he has done it but is it possible it's like guys like MJ and Bryant where the clutch shots are glorified and the misses forgotten?

 

[dtgold88]

You missed my argument. You can’t claim he is overhyped if he didn’t ever win a mvp. You can’t have it both ways.

Not sure anyone said overhyped. Did I imply this? I guess maybe. But why does he need to win an MVP to be considered overhyped?

Let's put it this way.....I think Jose Ramirez is a far better player than Jetes. Realize playing at different times but who gets/got more hype?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Not sure anyone said overhyped. Did I imply this? I guess maybe. But why does he need to win an MVP to be considered overhyped?

Let's put it this way.....I think Jose Ramirez is a far better player than Jetes. Realize playing at different times but who gets/got more hype?

because what is he overhyped to?? a perennial all-star who had post season success??

sounds pretty much like what he is...

and of course he will be talked about, he was the face of a dynasty...

over talked about is not the same thing as overhyped... i think as a player he is pretty much what we always thought he was...

if you want to say the persona of Derek Jeter was overly represented by the media and was overly talked about.... that is probably true... but again he was the face of a dynasty...

i guess the problem is that i cant think of another dynasty whose face was not an inner circle type player...

i guess the closest is the SF Giants, but they never felt like a dynasty despite winning 3 WS...

 

[dtgold88]

because what is he overhyped to?? a perennial all-star who had post season success??

sounds pretty much like what he is...

and of course he will be talked about, he was the face of a dynasty...

over talked about is not the same thing as overhyped... i think as a player he is pretty much what we always thought he was...

if you want to say the persona of Derek Jeter was overly represented by the media and was overly talked about.... that is probably true... but again he was the face of a dynasty...

i guess the problem is that i cant think of another dynasty whose face was not an inner circle type player...

i guess the closest is the SF Giants, but they never felt like a dynasty despite winning 3 WS...

some good points, but think only reason might have been "the face" is he was there longer. Been some better players who came through and as or more important to success like Clemens and ARod for instance. THE most important? I'd say it was Rivera but get why closer would not be as hyped.

But think some of your points make my point. He was overhyped because his team was so good.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

some good points, but think only reason might have been "the face" is he was there longer. Been some better players who came through and as or more important to success like Clemens and ARod for instance. THE most important? I'd say it was Rivera but get why closer would not be as hyped.

But think some of your points make my point. He was overhyped because his team was so good.

maybe i am talking semantics... i honestly dont know... but overhyped or over-rated is saying that people thought he was a better player than he was...

thats why i mention never winning MVP, because if he never won, then what is he being over-hyped to??

maybe it is just all about the words.... Yes he was certainly talked about more than most players back in the mid 90s and the 2000s... but i dont think the majority ever thought he was a better player than he was... and even if you want to use the 'intangibles" argument, i think lots of that is actually statistically supported...

 

[dtgold88]

maybe i am talking semantics... i honestly dont know... but overhyped or over-rated is saying that people thought he was a better player than he was...

thats why i mention never winning MVP, because if he never won, then what is he being over-hyped to??

maybe it is just all about the words.... Yes he was certainly talked about more than most players back in the mid 90s and the 2000s... but i dont think the majority ever thought he was a better player than he was... and even if you want to use the 'intangibles" argument, i think lots of that is actually statistically supported...

Curious how the intangible aspect is/was statistically supported. How much are you thinking those intangibles were helping the Pirates if that was where he went?

He was also talked about a lot more than players now who are much better (like JRam) even though social media a bigger thing today. Sure, between those 2 a lot has to do with personality and doesn't help JRam does not speak much English.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Curious how the intangible aspect is/was statistically supported. How much are you thinking those intangibles were helping the Pirates if that was where he went?

He was also talked about a lot more than players now who are much better (like JRam) even though social media a bigger thing today. Sure, between those 2 a lot has to do with personality and doesn't help JRam does not speak much English.

of course the if he was on another team hypothetical it is impossible to show his intangibles...

you can only base it on what he did as a yankee... how he was the face of the yankees, which was not ONLY because he was there the longest...

he also was a very good post-season player.. He has a career .321/.384/.449/.832 in the WS.. where he had a .400 OBP or better in 4 of his 5 WS wins...- that is one of the biggest reasons he is seen to be "CLUTCH"

even his most famous defensive play... the flip toss to get Giambi out at home in the 2001 division series vs the A's, the criticism by the haters is that he was in bad position... but at the same time, he made a play that defined his career... he found a way to make a big play at the most needed time... not many players can make a "mistake" like that.... and maybe his intuition and willingness to be the player to make the big play says more about him than the fact he was in the wrong position..,.. similar to how some basketball players demand the ball for that last second shot.... are they going to force that SHOT?? of course they are!!!

so the "clutch" and the "wining edge" is well supported by stats and facts...

the persona, sure it was created because he played for the Yankees... but he also flourished, and took advantage of the media to become the media darling... he was never part of controversy, or at least never the villain.... He knew how to handle the media as well as anyone...

 

[dtgold88]

of course the if he was on another team hypothetical it is impossible to show his intangibles...

you can only base it on what he did as a yankee... how he was the face of the yankees, which was not ONLY because he was there the longest...

he also was a very good post-season player.. He has a career .321/.384/.449/.832 in the WS.. where he had a .400 OBP or better in 4 of his 5 WS wins...- that is one of the biggest reasons he is seen to be "CLUTCH"

even his most famous defensive play... the flip toss to get Giambi out at home in the 2001 division series vs the A's, the criticism by the haters is that he was in bad position... but at the same time, he made a play that defined his career... he found a way to make a big play at the most needed time... not many players can make a "mistake" like that.... and maybe his intuition and willingness to be the player to make the big play says more about him than the fact he was in the wrong position..,.. similar to how some basketball players demand the ball for that last second shot.... are they going to force that SHOT?? of course they are!!!

so the "clutch" and the "wining edge" is well supported by stats and facts...

the persona, sure it was created because he played for the Yankees... but he also flourished, and took advantage of the media to become the media darling... he was never part of controversy, or at least never the villain.... He knew how to handle the media as well as anyone...

Is that really so much better in postseason when he was .310/.377/.440/.817? and what about the WS losses (or other playoff losses)? Those don't count? I can recall a series he had against the Tribe where he was just abysmal. If there was a key moment I was hoping he was at the plate.

The famous play? I certainly wouldn't say in bad position. Was more like lucky to be where he was at the right time.

Still not seeing much proof of the clutch, winning edge or intangibles here (especially the latter).

Good conversation BTW.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Is that really so much better in postseason when he was .310/.377/.440/.817? and what about the WS losses (or other playoff losses)? Those don't count? I can recall a series he had against the Tribe where he was just abysmal. If there was a key moment I was hoping he was at the plate.

The famous play? I certainly wouldn't say in bad position. Was more like lucky to be where he was at the right time.

Still not seeing much proof of the clutch, winning edge or intangibles here (especially the latter).

Good conversation BTW.

the line i gave you was his WS numbers not just his wins... i just stated afterwards that 4 of his wins he had OBP over .400...

his overall playoff numbers are .308/.374/.465/.838... which is almost identical to his career regular season numbers...

but that even shows how he played better when it mattered even more, when his WS numbers are better than his overall postseason numbers and better than his regular season numbers...

 

[dtgold88]

the line i gave you was his WS numbers not just his wins... i just stated afterwards that 4 of his wins he had OBP over .400...

his overall playoff numbers are .308/.374/.465/.838... which is almost identical to his career regular season numbers...

but that even shows how he played better when it mattered even more, when his WS numbers are better than his overall postseason numbers and better than his regular season numbers...

Looking at his stats it's kind of random. Some good to really good WS (and playoff series) and some bad or incredibly bad. And don't postseason games as a whole "matter more" than reg. season? But as you even mentioned he was pretty much the same in postseason as reg. season. Not to say that's a bad thing but it does not support the clutchness, intangibles, etc.

I'd also say without that Rivera fellow I'm not even sure how many times he gets to the WS (or wins them). IMO he was their overall MVP for those runs (not each season, of course).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Looking at his stats it's kind of random. Some good to really good WS (and playoff series) and some bad or incredibly bad. And don't postseason games as a whole "matter more" than reg. season? But as you even mentioned he was pretty much the same in postseason as reg. season. Not to say that's a bad thing but it does not support the clutchness, intangibles, etc.

I'd also say without that Rivera fellow I'm not even sure how many times he gets to the WS (or wins them). IMO he was their overall MVP for those runs (not each season, of course).

huh?? if your overall post season numbers are similar to your regular season(do remember he has a full sample of 158 games), and did much better in the WS than his overall numbers... how is that not clutch?? this is not even cherrypicking to make my point...


nobody said Jeter was the best player on the Yankee dynasty... they had a bunch of HOFers or should be HOFers... almost all better than Jetes.......


Hell, i was more of a Tino Martinez fan than a Jeter fan...

 

[dtgold88]

huh?? if your overall post season numbers are similar to your regular season(do remember he has a full sample of 158 games), and did much better in the WS than his overall numbers... how is that not clutch?? this is not even cherrypicking to make my point...


nobody said Jeter was the best player on the Yankee dynasty... they had a bunch of HOFers or should be HOFers... almost all better than Jetes.......


Hell, i was more of a Tino Martinez fan than a Jeter fan...

Being as good in postseason as reg. season makes him clutch? Never mind we are not even breaking down actual clutch situations in postseason.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Being as good in postseason as reg. season makes him clutch? Never mind we are not even breaking down actual clutch situations in postseason.

but wouldnt you agree the WS is the most important series??

 

[dtgold88]

but wouldnt you agree the WS is the most important series??

Sure....but he is much more productive in the lesser ALDS and has played far more of those games.

 

[chappee11]

Since June 1st, Aaron Judge is hitting .272.

Best right hitter we've ever seen? LOL. He's had three truly great seasons. If he makes it through this season without injury we can say four seasons. it takes more than four great seasons to call a player the greatest from a specific side of the plate.

He’s definitely not the best RH hitter I’ve ever seen. I simply don’t think if any GREAT hitters striking out 200+ times in a season.

He might be the best RH power hitter I’ve ever seen, though. Who would be among the group of nominees for best RH hitter?

Frank Thomas
ARod
Pujols
Trout
Manny Ramirez?

I think those guys are all better pure hitters. Frank Thomas in his prime had 3 seasons where he hit over .340 for a full season. Then his body mostly apart in his 30’s, but he had a 7 year run where he was amazing.

Pujols and Trout probably ahead of Judge, too. Judge has cemented his HOF status at this point, but he’s not top-35 all-time yet. A few more monster years and MVP caliber seasons can change that, though.

 

[dtgold88]

He’s definitely not the best RH hitter I’ve ever seen. I simply don’t think if any GREAT hitters striking out 200+ times in a season.

He might be the best RH power hitter I’ve ever seen, though. Who would be among the group of nominees for best RH hitter?

Frank Thomas
ARod
Pujols
Trout
Manny Ramirez?

I think those guys are all better pure hitters. Frank Thomas in his prime had 3 seasons where he hit over .340 for a full season. Then his body mostly apart in his 30’s, but he had a 7 year run where he was amazing.

Pujols and Trout probably ahead of Judge, too. Judge has cemented his HOF status at this point, but he’s not top-35 all-time yet. A few more monster years and MVP caliber seasons can change that, though.

Shorter peak due to injuries but I'd put Albert Belle in there.

 

[chappee11]

Shorter peak due to injuries but I'd put Albert Belle in there.

Yes! I thought of Belle. Nobody else was as menacing as he was back then. I also thought of Juan Gonzalez and Gary Sheffield initially. Gonzalez is nowhere close and is probably a pure PED creation. Sheffield was great, but not on Judge’s level. Sammy Sosa is hard to evaluate since he was another big PED guy.

In terms of pure power, Judge is near the top that I’ve seen. Maybe you put him with McGwire and Stanton(though Judge is better and more complete player than both)? Not sure who else is up there from the RH side.

 

[dtgold88]

Yes! I thought of Belle. Nobody else was as menacing as he was back then. I also thought of Juan Gonzalez and Gary Sheffield initially. Gonzalez is nowhere close and is probably a pure PED creation. Sheffield was great, but not on Judge’s level. Sammy Sosa is hard to evaluate since he was another big PED guy.

In terms of pure power, Judge is near the top that I’ve seen. Maybe you put him with McGwire and Stanton(though Judge is better and more complete player than both)? Not sure who else is up there from the RH side.

All good choices. As a Tribe fan obviously Manny more likable and played longer but I thought Belle was the better player.

 

[PolarVortex]

He’s definitely not the best RH hitter I’ve ever seen. I simply don’t think if any GREAT hitters striking out 200+ times in a season.

He might be the best RH power hitter I’ve ever seen, though. Who would be among the group of nominees for best RH hitter?

Frank Thomas
ARod
Pujols
Trout
Manny Ramirez?

I think those guys are all better pure hitters. Frank Thomas in his prime had 3 seasons where he hit over .340 for a full season. Then his body mostly apart in his 30’s, but he had a 7 year run where he was amazing.

Pujols and Trout probably ahead of Judge, too. Judge has cemented his HOF status at this point, but he’s not top-35 all-time yet. A few more monster years and MVP caliber seasons can change that, though.

I had all five of them on my list and for the boomers I would add Frank Robinson, Mays, Aaron, Musial, and Clemente,

 

[chappee11]

All good choices. As a Tribe fan obviously Manny more likable and played longer but I thought Belle was the better player.

Oh man. Those 90’s era Indians teams were absolutely terrifying. Definitely the best lineups that I can recall: Lofton-Vizquel-Baerga-Belle-Thome-Manny-Alomar Jr. etc… Unbelievable offense. I recall going to a game in Fenway way back in the day where young Manny was batting 6th and young Thome was batting 7th! Crazy.

So, yeah, I’ve seen plenty of better RH hitters than Judge, but Judge is probably the best pure RH power guy I’ve ever seen(ahead of McGwire). I’d also like to add Canseco to that list(another PED guy) with Belle, Stanton, Sosa & Juan Gonzalez.