Golf & the economy

[ATL96Steeler]

Pre-recession, the metro ATL area had a robust private golf club market...with initiation fees approaching 6 figures for the most prestigious clubs...those clubs have largely not been affected that much.

But there was a slew of private clubs that didn't survive it well that now offer public play.

$50-$65 is now the weekend rate for primetime tee times. With a few tracks (mostly those formerly private courses) getting a little more than that. If you don't mind starting later in the afternoon...after 2p, you can playsome really nice courses for about $45.

That's pretty close to what it was prior to the crash...how has the golf market changed in your area?

 

[mcro_rave_2001]

none really i can still play a round at the state park golf course for $24 and private course are the same at $45 dollar a round.

 

[SFNL]

I'll type out a full response in a little while. I got a long one lol.

 

[TobyTyler]

Pre-recession, the metro ATL area had a robust private golf club market...with initiation fees approaching 6 figures for the most prestigious clubs...those clubs have largely not been affected that much.

But there was a slew of private clubs that didn't survive it well that now offer public play.

$50-$65 is now the weekend rate for primetime tee times. With a few tracks (mostly those formerly private courses) getting a little more than that. If you don't mind starting later in the afternoon...after 2p, you can playsome really nice courses for about $45.

That's pretty close to what it was prior to the crash...how has the golf market changed in your area?

Way over saturated and too much competititon. Golf is very cheap.

 

[SFNL]

High end private clubs nationwide have remained unchanged. I'm talking about the ones that are inside the top 100-150 in the country. Their initiations and membership numbers have remained constant although rounds of golf have decreased at many of those clubs. People belong there to belong there, the money they spend in dues is a non issue.

The mid to lower end private clubs are the ones that have taken the hit. With an aging old school golf population dying out, there isn't a newer generation of golfer that is willing to pay to belong to a private club. Interests have changed, time is of high importance, and more than ever... Women factor into many decisions that a household makes. The younger ones that would have joined 10-15 years ago are spending their money differently. The world is more globalized, where you live isn't necessarily where you spend your time.

My main job is a membership/sales recruiter at my hometown country club. Back in my days of a junior golfer the initiation was $10,000 and there was people everywhere. Now, the initiation is only $1,000 if you are over 35 and $500 if you are under 35 and we can barely get anyone to join. The 2 local public courses are packed though. People would rather pay $40 to play a public course rather than join a private course with perfect conditions. It astounds me. We are barely staying afloat as a truly private club.

A lot of courses are going semi-private.. This allows for some memberships and some open play to the public. It is an absolute nightmare. These courses that at one time were pristine, are now being ripped to shreds by the public that knows nothing about what to do to take care of the course that you are playing. Semi-private destroys a private place.

I see a future of public courses everywhere and only a handful of insanely priced private clubs. We are well on our way to that.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

ST. Parks

none really i can still play a round at the state park golf course for $24 and private course are the same at $45 dollar a round.

Good point on the St. Parks...we've played one twice this year is was really nice...spent more on gas, but $35 for afternoon weekend, and the conditions...it was well worth it.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Great insight

High end private clubs nationwide have remained unchanged. I'm talking about the ones that are inside the top 100-150 in the country. Their initiations and membership numbers have remained constant although rounds of golf have decreased at many of those clubs. People belong there to belong there, the money they spend in dues is a non issue.

The mid to lower end private clubs are the ones that have taken the hit. With an aging old school golf population dying out, there isn't a newer generation of golfer that is willing to pay to belong to a private club. Interests have changed, time is of high importance, and more than ever... Women factor into many decisions that a household makes. The younger ones that would have joined 10-15 years ago are spending their money differently. The world is more globalized, where you live isn't necessarily where you spend your time.

My main job is a membership/sales recruiter at my hometown country club. Back in my days of a junior golfer the initiation was $10,000 and there was people everywhere. Now, the initiation is only $1,000 if you are over 35 and $500 if you are under 35 and we can barely get anyone to join. The 2 local public courses are packed though. People would rather pay $40 to play a public course rather than join a private course with perfect conditions. It astounds me. We are barely staying afloat as a truly private club.

A lot of courses are going semi-private.. This allows for some memberships and some open play to the public. It is an absolute nightmare. These courses that at one time were pristine, are now being ripped to shreds by the public that knows nothing about what to do to take care of the course that you are playing. Semi-private destroys a private place.

I see a future of public courses everywhere and only a handful of insanely priced private clubs. We are well on our way to that.

Interesting points.

Upper crust...exactly...I would consider Atlanta Athletic Club as an elite club (hosted 2 PGA champs). We had a really strong construction industry here pre-recession and many of the mid size companies had corporate memberships paying $30k to $50k at some of the top shelf clubs such as Eastlake, AAC...most all of that dried up but the old money members absorbed the loss of that revenue, plus East Lake has done well as the host of the Tour Championship.

Midlevel private...a few have remained private. I haven't heard of anybody going under, but typically you can get a tee time on the weekend after 11. Of the ones I've been to...conditioning hasn't suffered from public play.

Upscale daily fee...this was the big craze back in the early 90s in the ATL area...developers were hiring these big name designers, JN, Fazio, Love, etc. and building upscale golf course coummunities around them...pricing was steep...$60 to $125 on weekend....they would sell memberships so I guess you could call them semi-private.

With only 1 exception, most were purchased by Canongate GC and are part of this 20+ course stable. They started on the southside of town and quietly grew with their multiple course concept. Now they've bought half a dz on the north side.

Idk (I've heard Korean) who the money is behind them, but their pricing is very fair for your "home" course...About $1k initiation, $150 per mo., + cart fee on your home course, you can walk, if you play other member courses outside of your home course network it's about $30-$40.

If I ever do the private golf thing, that would be it...There are social memberships, etc. but it seems to be geared for the golf enthusiast, not as much a status thing. I wouldn't say pristine like an upscale private, but very good conditions and several options to play.

What we don't have much of is good muni golf...Colo has some great muni courses!.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

[/B]

Way over saturated and too much competititon. Golf is very cheap.

Sounds like FL.

My BIL was a member at a very nice track north of Tampa...Tom Lehman designed 18 or the 36...they wanted to go private but never reached the operating minimum headcount to do it...some members were open to stay and play biz...ultimately they opened 18 up for weekend play and stay and play guest can play both.

 

[flaraider]

High end private clubs nationwide have remained unchanged. I'm talking about the ones that are inside the top 100-150 in the country. Their initiations and membership numbers have remained constant although rounds of golf have decreased at many of those clubs. People belong there to belong there, the money they spend in dues is a non issue.

The mid to lower end private clubs are the ones that have taken the hit. With an aging old school golf population dying out, there isn't a newer generation of golfer that is willing to pay to belong to a private club. Interests have changed, time is of high importance, and more than ever... Women factor into many decisions that a household makes. The younger ones that would have joined 10-15 years ago are spending their money differently. The world is more globalized, where you live isn't necessarily where you spend your time.

My main job is a membership/sales recruiter at my hometown country club. Back in my days of a junior golfer the initiation was $10,000 and there was people everywhere. Now, the initiation is only $1,000 if you are over 35 and $500 if you are under 35 and we can barely get anyone to join. The 2 local public courses are packed though. People would rather pay $40 to play a public course rather than join a private course with perfect conditions. It astounds me. We are barely staying afloat as a truly private club.

A lot of courses are going semi-private.. This allows for some memberships and some open play to the public. It is an absolute nightmare. These courses that at one time were pristine, are now being ripped to shreds by the public that knows nothing about what to do to take care of the course that you are playing. Semi-private destroys a private place.

I see a future of public courses everywhere and only a handful of insanely priced private clubs. We are well on our way to that.

A sad statement on the evolution of the middle class America, where once it meant a stable career with a retirement/pension has now become a matter of survival for many and only a small percentage that can participate in many of the pleasures that our parents easily took for granted.
Florida is a prime example, tons of courses and competition, a few of my friends have memberships, several with Disney, which provides ample choices for families and golf included on what are the finer courses in the Central Florida.
Most of us know we are fortunate just to have steady jobs and to be able to golf at all, rates are very competitive at our local muni's and semi-privates, they are suffering just as we are, margins are tight in most businesses.
Right now I am playing on a promo card offered by one of our local radio stations, 6 rounds at some decent tracks in my vicinity for $50. I played a round through GolfNow last week for $9 at our local muni, not pristine conditions but I have seen much worse. It is astounding how lazy and ill-bred the general public can be when it comes to course etiquette. If I saw my playing partners treating our courses that way I would almost certainly bring their attention to it, we all try to be courteous and respectful, and take care of the course as we know it deserves.
The saying "the way you leave the course today is the way it will play tomorrow" should be posted all over the course, on every cart and score card, I don't know if it would help but it certainly couldn't hurt.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

A sad statement on the evolution of the middle class America, where once it meant a stable career with a retirement/pension has now become a matter of survival for many and only a small percentage that can participate in many of the pleasures that our parents easily took for granted.
Florida is a prime example, tons of courses and competition, a few of my friends have memberships, several with Disney, which provides ample choices for families and golf included on what are the finer courses in the Central Florida.
Most of us know we are fortunate just to have steady jobs and to be able to golf at all, rates are very competitive at our local muni's and semi-privates, they are suffering just as we are, margins are tight in most businesses.
Right now I am playing on a promo card offered by one of our local radio stations, 6 rounds at some decent tracks in my vicinity for $50. I played a round through GolfNow last week for $9 at our local muni, not pristine conditions but I have seen much worse. It is astounding how lazy and ill-bred the general public can be when it comes to course etiquette. If I saw my playing partners treating our courses that way I would almost certainly bring their attention to it, we all try to be courteous and respectful, and take care of the course as we know it deserves.
The saying "the way you leave the course today is the way it will play tomorrow" should be posted all over the course, on every cart and score card, I don't know if it would help but it certainly couldn't hurt.

Indeed. I'm seeing a swing back here...primetime weekend slots are booked up for nicer courses.

Course etiquette...when I started playing...I learned the etiquette of leaving the course as you found it from the guys I started playing with. They showed me how to repair a pitch mark on a green, not just handing me a divot tool...I do the same when I'm playing with new golfers.